AP Koggie: Semi-viable, or hopeless pipe dream?

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konfetarius

Senior Member

04-27-2012

Hm, well, let's see:

Reg. Shoes
Rod of Ages
Archangel's
Frozen Heart
Void Staff

~300 AP, 8.5 Mpen (assuming mpen reds, AP masteries)

Resist - Damage per R
30 - 441
60 - 387
90 - 345
120 - 311
150 - 283
180 - 260

Throw in Sorc Shoes

Resist - Damage per R
30 - 486 (+45 or 150 ap worth)
60 - 421 (+34 or 113 AP worth)
90 - 372 (+27 or 90 AP worth)
120 - 333 (+22 or 73 AP worth)
150 - 301 (+18 or 60 AP worth)
180 - 275 (+15 or 50 AP worth)

With Hunting Guise
30 - 499 (+13 or 43 AP worth)
60 - 471 (+50 or 166 AP worth)
90 - 411 (+39 or 129 AP worth)
120 - 365 (+32 or 106 AP worth)
150 - 328 (+27 or 87 AP worth)
180 - 298 (+23 or 76 AP worth)

And that's with Void Staff which cuts flat mpen cost efficiency in half. ~200 AP worth against targets around 100 MR range for price of Sorc Shoe upgrade and HG (about 2.2k combined cost, no?). Flat MPEN is very much worthwhile on Kog'Maw.

Personally, this is the general pathway I found working best for me (can be modified if needed by situation):

[1375 starting gold]

1. Catalyst (1325)
2. Shoes + Tear (995 + 350) [2670 gold total; 1295 acquired]
3. Rod of Ages (1710) [4380 gold total; 3005 acquired]
4. Sorc Shoes (750) [5130 gold total; 3755 acquired]

Above constitutes the early game build; and plants the seed for mega-mana pool later on.

5 or 6. Hunting Guise (1485)
5 or 6. Glacial Shroud (1525) [8140 gold total; 6765 gold acquired]

Above constitutes the mid-game build (should hit level 11 around this point), you now do scary damage against anything that's not an MR stacking tank. I feel this is pretty much the core AP Kog'Maw build that balances mana, damage, and survivability. After this, it's upgrading Tear for massive AP spike, Shroud if scary physical deeps, new Chalice or Void Staff depending on situation. Hunting Guise can be switched if game drags on too long.

What I think will happen is, I will get the new Chalice, then convert HG into Void Staff ASAP as my general late game build assuming enemies start building MR.


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Volandum

Senior Member

04-27-2012

Degnared: unfortunately stacking Manamunes is not profitable. The AD conversion is unique. I don't follow your working anyway.

Thanks for the calcs Konfetarius. I normally rush Shroud hard for the substantial DPS boost and leave catalyst at catalyst (or just ruby) before building it into Odyn's if there is enough magic damage incoming.

EDIT: Actually I think you may have underestimated the AP relative worth of your flat MPen, +27 dmg against 90 MR is surely more like 133-odd AP worth than 90, as you are calculating scaling vs 48.6 MR (after void + 10% from masteries) rather than 0 MR). This makes MPen look even more awesome.


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Degnared

Senior Member

04-27-2012

HAH! Really? I just assumed that it worked, since AA staves can be stacked. Derp. I didn't type up the calculations, since they're scribbled all over a sheet of loose leaf. Just note that I worked out added DPS, not total DPS. Anyway, that makes me drop consideration of Manamune. Hybrid may be worth pursuing, but I don't think I'm going to bother: this is about maximizing the potential of Kog's ult.

Anyway, I think that you guys are right about focusing on Mpen and CDR, but I don't like haunting guise. It's filling an item slot with something that doesn't cost that much. Are Guise and Morello's getting updated in the patch with the Unholy Grail? I would like to know, since I'm now thinking something along the lines of...

Sorc boots + AA Staff + Grail + Morello's. 9255 gold, so quite achievable even in top lane. With the 4% CDR from a 21/0/9 build, that's 39% CDR. A bot lane Kog could add a Voidstaff to the mix. That would be 168 added DPS before magic resist. ((342 AP * 0.3)/0.61). Yes, using the Grail for calculations right now is "cheating," but I think it's going to be too good to pass up.


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Volandum

Senior Member

04-27-2012

Are you really sure that you want to finish the Archangel's before building the Void?

Also, go 9/21/0 with CDR blues. Enlightenment makes itemisation a lot easier because you don't need Morello's, which doesn't do that much for you apart from CDR. Initiator REALLY helps since you intend to move around and "kite", and expect to be healthy (or dead).


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Degnared

Senior Member

04-27-2012

Oh, that wasn't an indication of build order, my mistake. Finishing AA staff would be pretty late on the list. And knocking Morello's off the build is probably a good idea. Just played two games (one top one bot), and I found myself wanting to make Deathcap both times, but I resisted the urge. People really have a tendency to avoid building MR, which is making me rethink Haunting Guise. I just tried a top lane build that consisted of rushing mana regen stuff (chalice + fiendish codex first), and it didn't help the mana issues much. I'm thinking that any CDR that I fit into the build is going to have to be at the very end.

One issue I'm running into is what to do about ganks. In the first game, my team was having trouble top, so it left their Wu Kong free to come bot frequently. I found myself able to get away easily enough just by paying attention to the map, but even at level 16, your range isn't quite long enough to keep one person out of your face and the other off the tower while sitting by the ramp.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

04-27-2012

Quote:
EDIT: Actually I think you may have underestimated the AP relative worth of your flat MPen, +27 dmg against 90 MR is surely more like 133-odd AP worth than 90, as you are calculating scaling vs 48.6 MR (after void + 10% from masteries) rather than 0 MR). This makes MPen look even more awesome.
Yeah, I was being lazy.

Wish Hunting Guise change didn't get reverted. +8% MS would be so much better than +200 health on AP Kog"maw. And then if that item finally got an upgrade, delicious.


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Volandum

Senior Member

04-27-2012

Re: ganks, I really don't see why you want to go bot, you really don't need farm to do a huge amount of damage, and don't scale amazingly with items once you have your cdr and mpen.


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Degnared

Senior Member

04-27-2012

Well, he's just so weak top before you get your ult, and even then he's kind of a liability til you hit 11. Morale is, unfortunately, a big part of soloqueue, and it can be disheartening to get crushed in the first two fights. (Note: I'm not saying he's useless in the first fights. After all, AD or AS/onhit doesnt get going right away either.) Granted, I did MUCH better in the game where I went top, but I think that was more a reflection of my opponents. I'll play another game later where I try rushing MPen and see how it works out.


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Volandum

Senior Member

04-27-2012

I really have no problem top, he fights decently with his E and W, and you get glacial and your level 1 ult pretty much after the first fight, and then your lv1 ult is on a 1.5 s cd and it's pretty effective.


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newbin

Senior Member

04-28-2012

I use to do AP Kog for fun. I always got a chalice, tooth, RoA, tear, void staff and a rylia's. Chain casted his ult 20 times before I actually ran out of mana. The other team spent most of their time dodging me then paying attention to the rest of my team. With rylia's it slowed them enough where I could hit the same person multiple times and made it impossible to escape from my team. That was a long time ago though now there too many new gap closers to shut me down now.