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AD Runes vs Arpen Runes

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Mandyapple

Junior Member

04-19-2012

I am building my AD rune page and I had a question concerning the necessity of arpen. It seems that most AD rune pages have a fair bit of arpen runes, and I am told that arpen quints are a must. However, it seems vast amounts of armor pen are only effective if the enemy team is stacking armor, as armor reduction can't go past zero. Most champions, I've noted, have a small amount of armor to begin with but does that require half a rune page dedicated to armor pen? Wouldn't attack damage be more beneficial as it causes damage no matter what the enemy team builds?

If you could shed some light on whether or not it would be in my best interest to pursue armor pen or AD runes, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mandy


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Zulfos

Senior Member

04-19-2012

Personally, may not be what everyone thinks is the best, but I have armor pen reds, crit damage quints and the rest of my runes are attack speed. I like it and it works for me.


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Hemmydall

Member

04-19-2012

At the start of a match having as little as 50 armor equates something close to 26-30% damage reduction. Imagine if you have enough armor pen to negate the majority of that down to lets say... 15%, this means the armor pen is essentially increasing your damage by 11-15%. Now raw AD can give you roughly the same amount in actual damage, but what about later in the game? Does having 10-15 extra AD 20 minutes in help as much as 15-20% armor reduction? Certainly not. The reason to start AD runes over armor pen is for faster jungle time (some jungles prefer atk speed), stronger harass on skills that gain lots from AD, etc. The armor pen helps some in early game, but is more helpful in later stages than raw AD is, and since the majority of matches last longer than 20 minutes its a good choice (doesn't mean the BEST, but a GOOD choice) for runes.


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Sephïroth

Senior Member

04-19-2012

Armor Pen and damage are really something that comes more to what you want. Armor pen will give you a good boost the entire game, but damage runes will give you far superior last hitting. I don't even own an armor pen set for my AD's because I will go crit or AD. I've just come to realize doing slightly more to champions isn't worth 40 less cs because I just missed the nudge on the minion.

Normally I'm stacking a Ghostblade and meat cleaver and don't worry too much about minor armor. If I end up running against a heavy armored team I just don't buy the cleaver and buy me a bow an arrow =D. I just find that armor pen is much easier to substitute with great items that have that as a side effect.

Now I do have a couple AD that don't use a ghostblade, usually Ashe or Tristana. With them I usually go Crit heavy and wait for them to buy some armor before I get my LW and eat armor.


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SvirfnebIin

Junior Member

04-19-2012

I wrote out a spreadsheet which you may find interesting and relevant - this is every possible combination of AD flat and Arpen flat marks and quints, on a single q from a level 2 urgot who took the masteries that add +10%arpen, +6 arpen, and +3 ad, assuming he has a corrosive charge on the target (which he usually will).

You can make a copy of the spreadsheet and modify it if you want for other champions, should be pretty simple to figure out.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnlRNSu4jYY6dFlwRS1GMjVSN0U2SWJwYVZTSnUzLUE#gid=0

What it boils down to is AD tends to be much better if you want to emphasize early game (similar/better damage on pretty much all the armor values you can expect early game, and much better lasthitting), arpen being okay at first and being important later (unless you take a last whisper or something, in which case it's less important because arpen is applied before %arpen)


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Intrinsic Entity

Member

04-19-2012

One time, I was farming with a base AD of 30 and got like -800 CS in 10 minutes.
Then I got ad quints.


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AdenozinTriFosfa

Member

04-19-2012

I did some math recently and received these results:

Quote:
LvL 6 Caitlyn Shooting, 66 Armor target

Modified(8 AD Reds, 1 ARP Red, 2 AD Quint, 1 ARP Quint):

Base damage with runes and masteries: 65 + (3 + 3 from masteries) + (12 from runes) = 83.
Now we calculate the total armor she is going to deal damage against: (66 - 11 from runes and masteries) - [.1*(66 - 11)] from masteries. Caitlyn's damage will be calculated against 49.5 armor.
49.5 armor reduces 49.5/(100+49.5) damage. Caitlyn's 83 AD will be reduced by 33.11%
So 83 - (83*.3311) = 55.5187 total damage.

Full ARP:

Base damage with runes and masteries: 65 + (3 + 3 from masteries) = 71.
Now we calculate the total armor she is going to deal damage against: (66 - 31 from runes and masteries) - [.1*(66 - 31)] from masteries. Caitlyn's damage will be calculated against 31.5 armor.
31.5 armor reduces 31.5/(100+31.5) damage. Caitlyn's 71 AD will be reduced by 23.954%
So 71 - (71*.23954) = 54 total damage.

Full AD:

Base damage with runes and masteries: 65 + (3 + 3 from masteries) + (15.3 from runes) = 86.3.
Now we calculate the total armor she is going to deal damage against: (66 - 6 from masteries) - [.1*(66 - 6)] from masteries. Caitlyn's damage will be calculated against 54 armor.
54 armor reduces 54/(100+54) damage. Caitlyn's 86.3 AD will be reduced by 35.06%
So 86 - (86*.3506) = 55.8484 total damage.

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LvL 12 Caitlyn Shooting, 80 Armor target

Modified(8 AD Reds, 1 ARP Red, 2 AD Quint, 1 ARP Quint):

Base damage with runes and masteries: 83 + (6 + 3 from masteries) + (12 from runes) = 104.
Now we calculate the total armor she is going to deal damage against: (80 - 11 from runes and masteries) - [.1*(80 - 11)] from masteries. Caitlyn's damage will be calculated against 62.1 armor.
62.1 armor reduces 62.1/(100+62.1) damage. Caitlyn's 104 AD will be reduced by 38.3096%
So 104 - (104*.38309) = 64.15864 total damage.

Full ArP:

Base damage with runes and masteries: 83 + (6 + 3 from masteries) = 92.
Now we calculate the total armor she is going to deal damage against: (80 - 31 from runes and masteries) - [.1*(80 - 31)] from masteries. Caitlyn's damage will be calculated against 44.1 armor.
44.1 armor reduces 44.1/(100+44.1) damage. Caitlyn's 92 AD will be reduced by 30.603%
So 92 - (92*.30603) = 63.84524 total damage.

Full AD:

Base damage with runes and masteries: 83 + (6 + 3 from masteries) + (15.3 from runes) = 107.3.
Now we calculate the total armor she is going to deal damage against: (80 - 6 from masteries) - [.1*(80 - 6)] from masteries. Caitlyn's damage will be calculated against 66.6 armor.
66.6 armor reduces 66.6/(100+66.6) damage. Caitlyn's 107.3 AD will be reduced by 39.9759%
So 107 - (107*.3997599) = 64.2256907 total damage.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LvL 18 Caitlyn Shooting, 200 Armor target


Modified(8 AD Reds, 1 ARP Red, 2 AD Quint, 1 ARP Quint):

Base damage with runes and masteries: 101 + (9 + 3 from masteries) + (12 from runes) = 125.
Now we calculate the total armor she is going to deal damage against: (200 - 11 from runes and masteries) - [.1*(200 - 11)] from masteries. Caitlyn's damage will be calculated against 170.1 armor.
170.1 armor reduces 170.1/(100+170.1) damage. Caitlyn's 125 AD will be reduced by 62.9766%
So 125 - (125*.629766) = 46.279 total damage.

Full ArP:

Base damage with runes and masteries: 101 + (9 + 3 from masteries) = 113.
Now we calculate the total armor she is going to deal damage against: (200 - 31 from runes and masteries) - [.1*(200 - 31)] from masteries. Caitlyn's damage will be calculated against 152.1 armor.
152.1 armor reduces 152.1/(100+152.1) damage. Caitlyn's 113 AD will be reduced by 60.3332%
So 113 - (113*.603332) = 44.823484 total damage.

Full AD:

Base damage with runes and masteries: 101 + (9 + 3 from masteries) + (15.3 from runes) = 128.3.
Now we calculate the total armor she is going to deal damage against: (200 - 6 from masteries) - [.1*(200 - 6)] from masteries. Caitlyn's damage will be calculated against 174.6 armor.
174.6 armor reduces 174.6/(100+174.6) damage. Caitlyn's 128.3 AD will be reduced by 63.58339%
So 128 - (128*.6358339) = 46.61326 total damage.


I hope this helped you. My results were calculated theoretically, you can apply the same test for your champion and your desired amount of damage.
As you can see for low-medium amount of damage AD and ArP runes give nearly the same damage output(0-1 difference). As your damage increases the Armor Penetration start taking effect and then you start dealing some minor bonus damage, but this is in late(mid) game and late game when you start dealing >250 damage.
The best advantage AD Runes have over ArP is that you will have 10-15 bonus damage early game and you can last hit the creeps with better efficiency. They really help me because I am from Europe and play here on NA, I have >200 ping :/

Here is a link explaining the pros and cons of AD/ArP in early/mid/late game.
http://rog.clgaming.net/blogs/a-different-view/5913-debunked-are-arpen-runes-better-than-ad-runes-redux


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The Murdertrain

Senior Member

04-19-2012

The issue I have with full ArP runes is that armor reduction is applied first, then penetration.
According to:
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_penetration

Armor reduction flat, armor reduction %, armor penetration flat, then armor penetration % are applied. So stacking armor reduction and armor pen are kind of useless. It is a balanced mix of both AD, Armor Reduction, and attack speed that I find to be most effective.


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COTA

Senior Member

04-19-2012

Armor Pen doesnt help for last hitting creeps early game which hurts you.


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1un3

Member

04-20-2012

Everyone always misses this.. but if you are going to get any amount of combination of armor pen and flat damage, you need to get the FLAT AD quints because simply they have a better ratio to their mark counterparts than the armor pen quints do


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