Why Atma's Impaler still doesn't suck

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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

04-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by axesandspears View Post
Bloodthirster:
100 ad: 100*1650/45=3666.66666 gold value.
20% lifesteal: 20*450/10=900 gold value.
Total: 4566.66666 gold value.
Efficiency %: 152.22222%. This is higher than Warmog's 14X% (can't remember the third digit and I don't want to bother calculating that now) was pre-nerf (now in the 120-130 range), but this is more of an indication that Bloodthirster has needed a nerf for a long time from a stats/cost standpoint. Technically the lifesteal nerf weakened it, but Lifesteal is also priced (and valued) higher so the cost-efficiency has barely been reduced.

Infinity Edge:
80 ad: 80*1650/45=2933.33333 gold value.
25% crit: 1152.77777 gold value.
Total: 4086.1111 gold value.
Efficiency %: 1.0669%. For the stats Infinity Edge is within acceptable parameters. The possible problem is that it increases the crit modifier by too much. This is similar to the issue with Deathcap's binary stat effect where you will always either be too strong or too weak depending on whether or not you have one item. It's a horrible design to be honest, that's part of the reason why I have felt Atma's Impaler needed to be nerfed.

Atma's Impaler:
45 armor: 45*700/45=700 gold.
18% crit: 18*830/18=830 gold. This is the only item where all of the cost is for that passive; however, the passive has an attributible value based on its current stat bonus.
Since it costs 825 gold: 825*45/1650=22.5 ad. This is the point where Atma's becomes cost efficient.
Before the nerf it was 1125 gold. After the nerf it was 1500 gold.

For this reason, Atma's Impaler is virtually always worth taking if you want armor, ad, and crit after getting one health item or reaching level 18 (earlier for many champions). This low cost-efficiency requirement is by design as Atma's Impaler is also supposed to be the offense+armor go to item for ranged ad carries. The problem being that carries usually need Banshee's Veil or QSS avoid capture and very few are willing to use more than one slot for defense.

The flipside of this is of course that you were getting 1650 more gold value than the cost-efficiency point if you had 3375 (67.5 damage) health for example: 170.06% cost efficiency for a single slot. Currently you reach 45 total ad at 3000 health for 135.03% cost efficiency for being close to the same amount of health.

This change is a good thing because it means bruisers themselves can be balanced more by the availability and actual costs of stats rather than by one item providing too much of a benefit. Binary items where you are too strong with and too weak without are just bad from a pure balance perspective.
by this logic, its worth buying boots and stacking 5 dorans. untill you run out of slots to fill, its the most cost effective build possible. there are more things to consider than just cost effectiveness.

for example, that atmas became a dead end for ad casters with an allready weak lategame. it doesnt grant enough stats to be an effective endgame item for those guys anymore. same reason, why ap carrys dont buy haunting guise. while some bruisers like lee sin (with more inbuild damage/high mobility as their main strenght) barely notice the difference. other melees (mainly ad casters who rely on burst damage with high ad scaling, similar to ap carrys. loose more than 100 damage total on their skills through the nerv). it was allready only an ok item for them in cost effectiveness, because they didnt capitalize from the crit on the atmas verry much. its main advantage was only the combination of ad and armor combined in a single item. its now garbage for them.

the item was too cost effective and caused some bruisers to dominate midgame. thats why the item price of the atmas should have been increased instead of nerving the stats, if riot wanted to tune down its cost effectiveness. at the end of the day, it was a dumb move to go about it.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

04-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMelchorI View Post
by this logic, its worth buying boots and stacking 5 dorans. there are more things to consider than just cost effectiveness.
Technically no, although cost-efficiency means a great deal in the balance of mid-tier and higher tier items the slot becomes more important as soon as you fill it up, and Doran's are horrible for the slot. Utility is also an important factor, which is why items that do not provide utility are/should be allowed to be more cost-efficient than usual. Notice Atma's Impaler still gains a reasonable amount of extra damage after passing 1500 health.

Cost-efficiency is important because there should be standards to item strength late game where the decisions are based more on utility and stat composition than one or two items having ridiculously strong effects. Unfortunately, when one item is "overpowered" in such a way, every champion who might take it or is taking it regularly will inevitably receive nerfs to balance them with that item. This leads to a dependency where the champions are literally underpowered without it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMelchorI View Post
for example, that atmas became a dead end for ad casters with an allready weak lategame. it doesnt grant enough stats to be an effective endgame item for those guys anymore. same reason, why ap carrys dont buy haunting guise. while some bruisers like lee sin (with more inbuild damage/high mobility as their main strenght) barely notice the difference. other melees (mainly ad casters who rely on burst damage with high ad scaling, similar to ap carrys. loose more than 100 damage total on their skills through the nerv). it was allready only an ok item for them in cost effectiveness, because they didnt capitalize from the crit on the atmas verry much. its main advantage was only the combination of ad and armor combined in a single item. its now garbage for them.

thats why the item price of the atmas should have been increased instead of nerving the stats, if riot wanted to tune down its cost effectiveness. at the end of the day, it was a dumb move to go about it.
Increasing the price of Atma's is contrary to its purpose as a strong offense+armor item for bruisers and carries. When you require health-stacking for the item to be effective you remove this niche.

"Ad casters" themselves should not be relying on the cost-efficiency of one unusually strong item. It is still a problem as I mentioned before. What "ad casters" need is a strong ad item that doesn't provide many other stats that weigh down the cost. You see players complaining about the cost efficiency of Bloodthirster here to complain about the Atma's nerf, and you would think that Bloodthirster perfect for them considering all of this.

Of course, melee champions will always need defenses to be effective, but bruisers can effectively do this by mixing defense and offense items and/or by taking a few offense/defense hybrid items and many bruisers continued to do this effectively despite the rise in Atmog's as a popular build. For many bruisers who were taking Atmog's build on a regular basis they were sub-optimal because they lacked other important stats the bruiser was designed to need.


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Critmaster Garen

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04-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by axesandspears View Post
Technically no, although cost-efficiency means a great deal in the balance of mid-tier and higher tier items the slot becomes more important as soon as you fill it up, and Doran's are horrible for the slot. Utility is also an important factor, which is why items that do not provide utility are/should be allowed to be more cost-efficient than usual. Notice Atma's Impaler still gains a reasonable amount of extra damage after passing 1500 health.

Cost-efficiency is important because there should be standards to item strength late game where the decisions are based more on utility and stat composition than one or two items having ridiculously strong effects. Unfortunately, when one item is "overpowered" in such a way, every champion who might take it or is taking it regularly will inevitably receive nerfs to balance them with that item. This leads to a dependency where the champions are literally underpowered without it.
only that atmas doesnt grant utility at all. it grants ad, crit and armor. those are basic stats. utility items on the contrary are items that grant some benefit outside of increasing basic damage/resistance stats. frozen mallet, trifoce or shurelias for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by axesandspears View Post

Increasing the price of Atma's is contrary to its purpose as a strong offense+armor item for bruisers and carries. When you require health-stacking for the item to be effective you remove this niche.

"Ad casters" themselves should not be relying on the cost-efficiency of one unusually strong item. It is still a problem as I mentioned before. What "ad casters" need is a strong ad item that doesn't provide many other stats that weigh down the cost. You see players complaining about the cost efficiency of Bloodthirster here to complain about the Atma's nerf, and you would think that Bloodthirster perfect for them considering all of this.

Of course, melee champions will always need defenses to be effective, but bruisers can effectively do this by mixing defense and offense items and/or by taking a few offense/defense hybrid items and many bruisers continued to do this effectively despite the rise in Atmog's as a popular build. For many bruisers who were taking Atmog's build on a regular basis they were sub-optimal because they lacked other important stats the bruiser was designed to need.
ad casters ARE not relying on the cost-effectiveness of atmas. they are however relying on the combination of basic stats on the item, that allow them to build a blalanced survivability/damage build.

if you would remove atmas from the game, every single item build alternative would heavily reduce the damage of ad caster, while heavily increasing their survivability.

or it would heavily increase their damage but hit their defenses hard. building an ad caster unbalanced like that will allways turn out bad, since they will either be too squishy and easy to shut down or wont have enough damage to have an impact in teamfights.

forcing those guys to go either into tank or heavy damage is not a viable option, because they dont have the skillsets to be excell in either role. by the way, bloodthirster is actually a verry bad item for ad casters. it grants a lot of ad, but they dont have any use for the lifesteal.


the problem is that ad casters lack real item alternatives. building an ad caster is like building him with nieche items of ad carrys and tanks as core items. like there are no 5 items in the game that actually only use stats ad casters find usable.

even ghostblade, which is pretty much the most usefull item for ad casters grants crit and an active that gives attack speed.

if there was an item, that grants enough ad, armor and spellvamp, ad casters would drop the atmas any day. having to build hp on the atmas to make it effective was what made it a midgame/lategame item. increasing the item price on the atmas would just have delayed the point where it got effective a bit into lategame. that would have been absolutely enough to reduce the midgame domination of some atmas bruisers (because of the items cost effectiveness) without touching the endgame effectiveness of EVERY single melee in the game.


most people dont seem to understand that atmas wasnt actually a popular item, because it was exceptionally powerful. it was only cheap on most melees, that make use of crit and it was so "popular" because there is no alternative item, that combines ad and armor at the same time. not to mention the general lack of items for viable ad caster/bruiser builds.


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Chingmeister

Senior Member

04-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMelchorI View Post
most people dont seem to understand that atmas wasnt actually a popular item, because it was exceptionally powerful. it was only cheap on most melees, that make use of crit and it was so "popular" because there is no alternative item, that combines ad and armor at the same time. not to mention the general lack of items for viable ad caster/bruiser builds.
Before Atmas you stacked BT (or HTGB) or built an IE. Remember the double BT Panth days?

After Atmas/HTGB effective removal from game you just go back to stacking BT or build an IE.

You don't need the 45 armor from atmas if you are at 60% lifesteal from a pair of BT, a wriggles, and runes/masteries. Add in Mogs, mercs, some AS runes, and GA/Aegis and your good to go toe to toe against anything.

I'm predicting 20-30% BT nerf within 2 months after everyone begins stacking them, followed by redacting nerfs on Atmas once they realize there is only a single build path remaining for every dps champ.

Also, cost and cost efficiency are the only way to review basic stat items.


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Critmaster Garen

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04-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chingmeister View Post
Before Atmas you stacked BT (or HTGB) or built an IE. Remember the double BT Panth days?

After Atmas/HTGB effective removal from game you just go back to stacking BT or build an IE.

You don't need the 45 armor from atmas if you are at 60% lifesteal from a pair of BT, a wriggles, and runes/masteries. Add in Mogs, mercs, some AS runes, and GA/Aegis and your good to go toe to toe against anything.

I'm predicting 20-30% BT nerf within 2 months after everyone begins stacking them, followed by redacting nerfs on Atmas once they realize there is only a single build path remaining for every dps champ.

Also, cost and cost efficiency are the only way to review basic stat items.
lifesteal doesnt work on skills though, which is the main damage source for ad casters. yeah, i returned to ie in my ad caster build too. but just because there is no other choice really (unless you want survivability but hit like a paper towel). both bt and ie remain core ad carry items and cant be used to full effectiveness on ad casters.

as for the cost effectiveness. your completely right. im not questioning that the item needed a nerv in cost effectiveness at all. i just believe they did it from the wrong end. instead of reducing the cost effectiveness by increasing the item price and leave the stats alone, they decreased the stats without changing the item price.


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Grizley

Senior Member

04-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by axesandspears View Post
Increasing the price of Atma's is contrary to its purpose as a strong offense+armor item for bruisers and carries. When you require health-stacking for the item to be effective you remove this niche.
That niche doesn't exist. At no point now are not not better off buying a BF Sword and a chain vest.

Do the math.

BF Sword 1650, Chain vest 700. total 2350. 45 armor 45AD
Atma's costs 2355 for 45 armor and 18% crit.

Now, at some point the Atma's can give 45AD you say, and you would be correct. That point would be 3000HP. Now it's not inconceivable that a tanky type might hit 3k hp. At 18. With heavy hp investment. By that point you've finished your BT. So what do the numbers look like with BT finished and a Giants Belt bought by the Atma noob?

BT + Chain Vest: 100AD 20% lifesteal 45 armor
Atmas + Giants belt: 430hp 45 armor 18% crit 6AD

Are you freaking kidding me? How do those look at all comparable?

But but but! You say, that BT guy used 2 slots early and the Atma noob only used one! You are correct again sir and a good eye you have! However, the key is... used two slots early, when you've probably got maybe 3 slots full of dorans, boots and first item. Slot efficiency matters late game.

And now that you've brought up slot efficiency, why oh why is that guy with the BT carrying around a chain vest?! Well, he can build it into Wardens mail mid game to protect from the fledgeling carries and later into Randuins or he can build it into a GA late game. You will note that for reasons we're still looking into champs required to dive into the middle of the enemy team to have any effect favor the GA effect late game.

So, to sum up for the Ritalin popping kids in the crowd... At no point in the game is it more advantageous to have an Atmas over a BT, even spending the gold that would be spent on Atmas defense on a Chain vest.

Now you may notice I did not mention the crit, early the Atma noob has 18% crit and the cagey stat guru does not. However, in no circumstance does the 18% crit make up for the 45AD. Later on when crit shines, at least for AD carries, the veteran player has 20% lifesteal which anyone will tell you is at bare minimum equal to crit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by axesandspears View Post
"Ad casters" themselves should not be relying on the cost-efficiency of one unusually strong item. It is still a problem as I mentioned before. What "ad casters" need is a strong ad item that doesn't provide many other stats that weigh down the cost. You see players complaining about the cost efficiency of Bloodthirster here to complain about the Atma's nerf, and you would think that Bloodthirster perfect for them considering all of this.
The BT is the best available for an AD caster, however that doesn't mean that it's sufficient. If Blasting Rods were the only AP item that existed all AP champs would buy Blasting Rods but that would not in fact mean that either Rods or AP champs were balanced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by axesandspears View Post
Of course, melee champions will always need defenses to be effective, but bruisers can effectively do this by mixing defense and offense items and/or by taking a few offense/defense hybrid items and many bruisers continued to do this effectively despite the rise in Atmog's as a popular build. For many bruisers who were taking Atmog's build on a regular basis they were sub-optimal because they lacked other important stats the bruiser was designed to need.
The problem with the theory of bruisers just building 3 defense items and 2 offense items or visa versa is that each additional item devoted to an effect is more powerful than the last.

To illustrate this point look at an AD carry. After his Dorans and boots phase he gets a Zeal, not too threatening. Then he buys a BF sword. Now his damage noticable, because the crit and attack speed alone may not do a ton but when you multiply the BF Swords damage by the crit and attack speed it does a ton more than either item would alone. Now he adds a Last Whisper, Bloodthirster and Phantom Dancer and nearly instantly explodes anything he right clicks on.

Lest you think it's just a carry thing, lets look at an AP champ. They rush Deathcap. It's a very efficient item but it doesn't really start to shine until you build a second AP item, and then you add in a Void Staff to get rid of that pesky MR... etc etc.

The same applies for tanky items but I'm not getting into that. It should be relatively apparent that an armor item + a hp item is far better than either alone because they multiply each other.

Now, if someone builds 2 offense items they will end up doing FAR less than half of the damage of someone who builds 4 offensive items. Ditto for someone who builds 4-5 defensive items instead of 3.

Now Atmas wasn't an especially good item before the nerf, but what it did do is allow an item that converted a small percent of a tanky stat into an offensive stat. Why is this good game design? Because it's extremely unappealing for someone who isn't building tanky, ie a carry, while still having value for someone who is forced to build tanky. It's not as good as a BT, not even before the nerf. Not until you hit 5000hp prenerf or 6700hp post nerf. That's even assuming you value crit at near the same value as lifesteal. However, prenerf it would provide a little bit of propping up of damage late game for a group of champs that fall off hard late game.

We have wandered off topic though and I think it's important to reiterate that Atmas was essentially never purchased in a competitive setting before the nerf. Why? Because it's always a 5th or 6th item. Why? Because it's no good without hp/defense items to support it and it's never the best option for an early offensive item.

So what role did Atmas play before and why is it a bad thing that a poor item got nerfed? Good question. It was bought late game when you had a pile of hp to survive and the "squishy" AP and AD carry champs were running around with 2.5-3k hp and significant armor in the AP case or lifesteal that outhealed your damage in the AD case. Note, that didn't make a bruiser or ad caster good late game, it just made them less bad. Now that option is a trap, you're better off with a BT.


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Paukinra

Member

04-25-2012

I still build atmas, its not as cost effient but I feel the defense is still worth it vs some teams


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GuysIJustFarted

Junior Member

04-25-2012

Made a little spreadsheet that calculates the total cost effectiveness (based on AD) depending on champion health. It shows other AD item cost effectiveness for comparison.

It's totally based on AD so it doesn't give the total cost effectiveness of an item. You would have to factor in every stat the item gives really compare items. I was thinking of doing that though...