Help with Talon gameplay.

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Melvear

Senior Member

04-16-2012

My experience with Talon is mostly in dominion, but as far as item builds and strats go, I believe what I will write is true.

Talon needs 3 things to work well in my experience: AD, ArPen and cdr. You want as much damage as possible, and you want that damage to be close to true damage as well, and you want your skills up asap. Attack speed is entirely irrelevant, as is keeping people in melee range (you deal 90% of your damage in about 1.5 seconds, if they aren't dead at that point, you want to back off anyway)

Now, in terms of items you should buy, this is what I normally get:
Brutalizer
Ionian Boots
Infinity Edge
Last Whisper
BF Swords

My runes on Talon are 1 crit mark, 8 arpen marks, arpen quints, armor seals and cdr glyphs. I normally use a 15/15/0 mastery page to maximize my damage as much as I can while still having my cdr as high as possible, but this may not be ideal for SR.

Now, I think only 2 things need to be explained in my item build: why IE and why not BT. Well, for 2 reasons: crit is useful, lifesteal is terrible. In a normal assault, you will get 2, maaaybe 3 auto attacks off. Getting a crit in there (ideally on your Q swing) means very serious damage with IE's effect. I've gotten crits upwards of 1k damage before, it makes a huge difference. The lifesteal from BT is .... there. You'll get 100-200 health back in a combo. It's ok but your goal is to kill people not hurt them.
Once you have all items slot filled, upgrade the BFS to BTs as you get gold.

Last thing (cause I need to get back to work) is the combo. E>AA>Q>W>R is a normal combo if you're attacking from plain sight. Otherwise, try R>E>AA>Q>W. You lose out on the first part of your ult's damage, but you get a huge element of surprise, which often translates into panic from your target, and you can take advantage of that to either finish them off through AAs (if they are just short of death) or to get away if somehow they are still healthy enough to put up a fight.

Don't try to be a fighter with Talon. You are not one. Get in there, kill, and if you don't kill, run away like a sissy. If they are foolish enough to chase, E>AA>Q>W and they should be down for the count.


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Gingivitus

Member

04-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalJack View Post
I'm not sure I really like this advice here.

Morg's shield will only stop the silence and the slow on your skills it doesn't stop any of the damage so if you can hit her when she has it down great but don't be afraid to jump her when she has it up.

Also, avarice blade? really? I usually don't finish the full Yomu's until I have both a BT and a TF done and maybe a LW too. You don't want to be sitting there auto attacking with talon.



I run full ad runes on talon (reds and quints and I've been thinking about getting ad yellows but I haven't tried it yet) and I just build the brutalizer first this usually gives me enough apen to burst squishy people who usually don't build armor (like the ad/ap carry) and those should be your main targets anyway. Since talon's skills scale with AD I find this usually works out better. If you are still having trouble punching through their armor get a LW.

Oh also don't build frozen mallet, it costs way too much money for the damage it gives you.
Talon's passive allows for 10% more dmg against slowed targets. You are missing out on 10% more dmg by not attacking when you could just wait a couple of seconds for the shield to go down. It might not seem like a lot, but it might be enough to either push them out of lane or kill them.

Regarding Avarice: I never finish my Yomu's blade first either. I usually get hat last, keeping the Avarice in my inventory ~20-30mins (depending on how long the game is). It gives a chunk of extra gold to keep it as opposed to finishing the item.

I usually Avarice>Sheen>Brutal then either TF or a BF sword depending on how the game is going. If they start building a lot of armor, ill try and rush a Bloodthirster. Otherwise I go for the TF.

The armor pen runes give you more bang for your buck. You can either have 3.X (don't remember the numbers after) APen or 2.X AD. The pen helps out a lot more and considering most casters have ~30armor early game, you will pretty much be slicing right through them.

And yes, dont buy a Frozen Mallet. Dont build anything for survival except maybe merc treads. If you build into survival, you are taking away some of your burst. And quite honestly that little bit of Armor/Mres isnt going to keep you alive. If they focus you, you are going to die no matter what.


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Ayestes

Senior Member

04-16-2012

For those reading the comments advocating flat AD instead of ArmPen runes, please do the math yourself. Don't trust anything you read on this forum, including my own following comments without verifying them yourself. AD will give you better last hits, but ArmPen will give you much better champion burst especially with your physical abilities. This is especially true against casters that often don't have any Armor runes which is often the case.

Generally for the highest damage mid game you want to combine 31 Armor Penetration from runes and masteries with a Brutalizer for a whole truck ton of Armor Pen.


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Melvear

Senior Member

04-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gingivitus View Post
Talon's passive allows for 10% more dmg against slowed targets. You are missing out on 10% more dmg by not attacking when you could just wait a couple of seconds for the shield to go down. It might not seem like a lot, but it might be enough to either push them out of lane or kill them.
It gives 10% more damage on regular attacks only. It's therefore not 10% to your damage output, more like 4-5%. It's nice to have but it's not something to really try hard to maximize.


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Gingivitus

Member

04-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melvear View Post
It gives 10% more damage on regular attacks only. It's therefore not 10% to your damage output, more like 4-5%. It's nice to have but it's not something to really try hard to maximize.
If you are taking advantage of your TrinForce/Sheen properly, then it is worth the wait.
e>AA>w>>AA>q>AA>r>(situational)AA
That 10% extra dmg might make or break you, even if it was only an extra 80dmg. Nothing worse than seeing a person with 23hp go back...

Its best not to sacrifice any dmg no matter how little it is.


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Melvear

Senior Member

04-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gingivitus View Post
If you are taking advantage of your TrinForce/Sheen properly, then it is worth the wait.
e>AA>w>>AA>q>AA>r>(situational)AA
That 10% extra dmg might make or break you, even if it was only an extra 80dmg. Nothing worse than seeing a person with 23hp go back...

Its best not to sacrifice any dmg no matter how little it is.
The problem is that against a lot of champions, waiting in melee is suicide. If you don't burst down a mage, they will retaliate, same for other assassins, melee carries and bruisers. Only tanks and supports left.


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Arcunein

Junior Member

04-16-2012

Try wearing your opponent down in lane first. The problem may not be your build but when you decide to commit to your full combo. Taking the time to harass your opponent while you farm would increase the chances of you killing them. When you're farming and they're close, try raking them following up with an autoattack. Usually when you rake someone they immediately back off because they don't like being slowed which gives you a small window for one attack. small harass like that can pay off big when you get your ult and they're at half health, and you blow your full combo on the other guy with your ignite. I've had success with Talon this way but again, the key is to hit every window of opportunity you have to harass without sacrificing your cs.


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Gingivitus

Member

04-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melvear View Post
The problem is that against a lot of champions, waiting in melee is suicide. If you don't burst down a mage, they will retaliate, same for other assassins, melee carries and bruisers. Only tanks and supports left.
Good point :P. I will agree that it may only be useful on some champions, but not so useful on others.


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Rhavien

Junior Member

04-16-2012

I tried to main Talon for sooo long and failed hard. Similar problems to the OP, but I'll tell you what finally turned the corner for me. Movement speed quints. Its so important to get in and out before they can respond, hovering just out of range sniping until you can burst them down, and that extra MS made a world of difference.

Maybe not the optimal build but here's what I run and it seems to work for me:
MS quints, ArP reds, flat armor yellows, and MR/lvl blues.
Ionian boots
Brutalizer
Bloodthirster
Hexdrinker (that shields a lifesaver)
Sheen
Infinity Edge

If the games going long upgrade Brutalizer/Yomuu's, Sheen/ TF, and then hexdrinker/Maw.


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TDurden

Junior Member

04-16-2012

Thanks for all the replies, you guys are being really helpful. I tried some new tactics today, and I think I am getting better...still bad, but better.

@Rhavien: Yes, I am saving especially for the quints of swiftness. I hate being an assassin and not being able to chase down almost dead champion or flee from a bad situation.

Maybe someday I'll be able to main Talon, I really like this champion and think he has great potential, maybe I'm really doing my combo at the wrong time, guess I need experience with this sort of thing.

Again, thanks for all the replies.


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