Locked Camera Discussion

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boourns

UI Designer

04-19-2012
12 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Riolu View Post
@Boourns: Have you thought about enabling a UI flip instead of a map flip? Allow the "top" portion of the UI to go on the bottom, and vice versa, with the press of a button.
No, because it doesn't solve the problem, you can try setting the HUD scale really small and see for yourself. The camera angle and perspective means you still see less below the center of the screen


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boourns

UI Designer

04-19-2012
13 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by FriendlyRaid View Post
I'm sorry, but your argument doesn't make any sense.

You're saying we not allowed to zoom out more because it would be unfair to people with small monitors, because people with bigger monitors and better video cards would be able to see more? This makes no sense whatsoever. You can click anywhere on the map and see it instantly. The only way this would be true is if everyone was forced to use a locked camera, then with a larger monitor you would literally be seeing more of the field.

I mean if this is your argument, then why not limit everyone to 800x600? It's only fair. Or, why not figure out who has the lowest frames per second in a game and make everyone play at that FPS? I mean if Billy is only getting 5 FPS, then everyone who is getting a higher FPS than Billy, is basically cheating Billy.

Everyone wants to be able to zoom out more, the program seems to be able to accommodate that customer request. Your reason for not giving it to us isn't very good.
If you can "click anywhere on the map and see it instantly," why do you want to zoom out farther?

I'd suggest asking the game designers, as I've mentioned several times in the past. This is not something I've come up with and I'm not the best person to explain the reasoning.

Just off the top of my head, though, if you see more of the map you have to render more geometry and textures which slows down min-spec computers. Also if you run at a lower resolution you can't see the same level of detail so if you zoomed out more things could be too small to identify.


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Kai Talakki

Member

04-19-2012

I still do not understand the issue with shifting the camera down for purple to compensate for the UI. I get that you're saying this would limit your view if you're coming from the back of the team fight, but blue already has that issue and there is not nearly as much complaint about blue's locked camera view as there is for purple. The way locked camera is now, I feel forced to not play certain champions if I'm on purple, but feel no such restriction when on blue.

Even if purple not having a good "come from behind" view were a big issue, why would giving blue and purple the same view-space be unfair? If you give them the same range of vision, then no side has an advantage over the other as far as range of view goes.

I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I have not seen any answer to this (I apologize if I've somehow missed it) and the issue with purple side's camera is a huge detriment to the amount of fun I have when playing pvp games.


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DarkTyrian

Member

04-19-2012

@Boourns: Why not allow us to lock the camera in any position we like instead of only dead center. This would allow locked camera players to move the camera in a position where they can see lower down when playing Purple side and still have a locked camera.

Locked like this.


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Best Atheist NA

Senior Member

04-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkTyrian View Post
@Boourns: Why not allow us to lock the camera in any position we like instead of only dead center. This would allow locked camera players to move the camera in a position where they can see lower down when playing Purple side and still have a locked camera.

Locked like this.
Yeah, this has been suggested before, and would really solve 95% of the problem. Have the option to lock camera to the bottom left, center, or top right.


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David Hume

Senior Member

04-19-2012

There's a good reason to limit the maximum amount of zoom.

Have you ever played Supreme Commander? It was an RTS with an unlimited zoom system, so you could zoom in up close to watch little skirmishes between tanks or zoom out for proportionally sized walking superfortresses - or even all the way out to see the entire map at once.

Which meant that everyone spent almost the entire game zoomed all the way out, effectively playing the game from a full-screen minimap. So instead of delivering on the promise of being able to watch massive machines of death and lasers torpedo each other from any angle, what you got was a game where you watched your swarm of tank and bomber icons fly around their factory icons.

That said, screen size is a big deal. It's unacceptable that some players have a view advantage simply because they have higher resolution monitors. Having a higher resolution monitor should mean that you get to see Runeterra in higher resolution, not that you get a vision edge on your opponents.


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Sedgitize

Junior Member

04-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
If you can "click anywhere on the map and see it instantly," why do you want to zoom out farther?

I'd suggest asking the game designers, as I've mentioned several times in the past. This is not something I've come up with and I'm not the best person to explain the reasoning.

Just off the top of my head, though, if you see more of the map you have to render more geometry and textures which slows down min-spec computers. Also if you run at a lower resolution you can't see the same level of detail so if you zoomed out more things could be too small to identify.
I was playing earlier and have a perfect example of why we need to be able to zoom out further...

I was playing with unlocked camera, and I was hugging my turret (purple bottom outermost turret) and attempting to dodge skill shots while three champions fired skill shots at me. One was at the bush to the top left of the tower, one was below and to the left of the tower, and one was below and to the right of tower. I was unable to eye the attackers above me and below me simultaneously as I couldn't zoom out far enough.

While the current camera zoom allows us to see to the left and right of us well, we are negatively affected when trying to see above and below us.

This scenario and many similar scenarios are not terribly rare. I find them quite common. Like anytime there is a teamfight going on and I would love to focus my attention there but know there is a gank coming, and it hinders my ability to participate in the teamfight because I can either watch my back or help, but can not do both simultaneously.

Where should we be lurking in the forums to ask for this fix? It would undoubtedly solve the issues here... (as long as the developers didn't use it as an excuse to increase skill ranges or something similar).

As a rebuttal to your comment; min. spec computers already suffer greatly regardless due to FPS I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not the greatest techie. Perhaps this doesn't help my argument, but quite simply, if you have a trashy computer, then you have a trashy computer... you're going to suffer.

As cold as it may sound; I'd argue that those users should get better computers if they want to play games. LoL is not a demanding game so if they can't play this, then I'm not sure there is much else they can play. RuneScape, for example, I find far more demanding on my computer, even on min specs... and that was before any new changes they may have added recently. If they can not afford to keep a computer up to date or replaced often enough to keep up with free games, then I would hypothesize that they probably aren't paying customers (though I acknowledge that the stats may very well say otherwise),

Quite simply, why should so many suffer with the inability to simply see what is going on around their champions, just because some players need to upgrade their computers? It seems like it is more for financial and marketing reasons than for gameplay reasons.

Sorry for the walls of text...
TL;DR: IMHO, the current max zoom is insufficient, and why.


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boourns

UI Designer

04-20-2012
14 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hume View Post
There's a good reason to limit the maximum amount of zoom.

Have you ever played Supreme Commander? It was an RTS with an unlimited zoom system, so you could zoom in up close to watch little skirmishes between tanks or zoom out for proportionally sized walking superfortresses - or even all the way out to see the entire map at once.

Which meant that everyone spent almost the entire game zoomed all the way out, effectively playing the game from a full-screen minimap. So instead of delivering on the promise of being able to watch massive machines of death and lasers torpedo each other from any angle, what you got was a game where you watched your swarm of tank and bomber icons fly around their factory icons.

That said, screen size is a big deal. It's unacceptable that some players have a view advantage simply because they have higher resolution monitors. Having a higher resolution monitor should mean that you get to see Runeterra in higher resolution, not that you get a vision edge on your opponents.
This... at least from my limited perspective as a UX designer


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boourns

UI Designer

04-20-2012
15 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedgitize View Post
I was playing earlier and have a perfect example of why we need to be able to zoom out further...

I was playing with unlocked camera, and I was hugging my turret (purple bottom outermost turret) and attempting to dodge skill shots while three champions fired skill shots at me. One was at the bush to the top left of the tower, one was below and to the left of the tower, and one was below and to the right of tower. I was unable to eye the attackers above me and below me simultaneously as I couldn't zoom out far enough.

While the current camera zoom allows us to see to the left and right of us well, we are negatively affected when trying to see above and below us.

This scenario and many similar scenarios are not terribly rare. I find them quite common. Like anytime there is a teamfight going on and I would love to focus my attention there but know there is a gank coming, and it hinders my ability to participate in the teamfight because I can either watch my back or help, but can not do both simultaneously.

Where should we be lurking in the forums to ask for this fix? It would undoubtedly solve the issues here... (as long as the developers didn't use it as an excuse to increase skill ranges or something similar).

As a rebuttal to your comment; min. spec computers already suffer greatly regardless due to FPS I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not the greatest techie. Perhaps this doesn't help my argument, but quite simply, if you have a trashy computer, then you have a trashy computer... you're going to suffer.

As cold as it may sound; I'd argue that those users should get better computers if they want to play games. LoL is not a demanding game so if they can't play this, then I'm not sure there is much else they can play. RuneScape, for example, I find far more demanding on my computer, even on min specs... and that was before any new changes they may have added recently. If they can not afford to keep a computer up to date or replaced often enough to keep up with free games, then I would hypothesize that they probably aren't paying customers (though I acknowledge that the stats may very well say otherwise),

Quite simply, why should so many suffer with the inability to simply see what is going on around their champions, just because some players need to upgrade their computers? It seems like it is more for financial and marketing reasons than for gameplay reasons.

Sorry for the walls of text...
TL;DR: IMHO, the current max zoom is insufficient, and why.
Actually we pay at lot of attention to min-spec performance. If we're going to tell people they can play on a setup we want them to have a playable experience! For boxed products this may be less important, but we want to be as inclusive as possible. As much as I sometimes want to discard our min-spec so we don't have to worry about low resolutions screens, etc. I understand that not everyone in our audience can spend a bunch of money on a better computer. We still want them to be able to play our game *and* have fun!

Also, I would suggest in the situation you outline, your ability to only focus on one thing at a time is as much of a limiting factor as field of view. Plus if you're actually surrounded by three people with long range abilities like that from outside your tower range... you're probably not getting out of this situation alive! I hope the rest of your team is taking advantage of the situation by pushing the other lanes.

If you want more info, try to get Morello's attention with an @Morello in General or Zileas (although with Zileas you'd better be prepared to take some trolling from him in addition to useful information :P).


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Best Atheist NA

Senior Member

04-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
Also, I would suggest in the situation you outline, your ability to only focus on one thing at a time is as much of a limiting factor as field of view.
While I do somewhat agree with this statement, the fact of the matter is, there's still tons of players who can't multitask as well as others. LoL is the first RTS I've ever played, and all of the other games I've played have the camera locked on your character, with your character looking forward, not at you. My fiancÚ plays Starcraft so she's used to the constant mouse flicking to the edges of the screen to move the camera around. I am not. I've tried, and it literally annoys the h3ll out of me. It's a miserable experience when I see I'm on purple side in champ select, because I know I can't play the champions I want.

I'd hate to call the inability to use an unlocked camera a handicap, but that's the way I feel sometimes. I also don't like to be belittled and made fun of for doing so. Almost every forum thread related to unlocked vs locked camera usage has at least one person that feels the need to say: "lol noobs, use unlocked camera" or "ITT baddies using locked cameras". Of course, they get away with it, because there is no report function on the forums, but that's a whole other topic.

Basically, I think there's enough evidence to say that this *is* a problem, and we deserve a change.