Locked Camera Discussion

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3nderr

Senior Member

04-27-2012

The fix for “flipping the view” can be solved imo by a much simplier change imo
Idk if this has been suggested or not yet, but having a second locking option that locks the camera in its current position relative to your champion movements (esseintally you’re just changing the centerpoint of the locked camera).

Ie. You scroll down a bit and then lock the camera, so instead of your champ being in the center of the screen you’ve positioned it so your champ is now moreso in the upper righthand corner.


I also wanted to weigh in on the issue I have w/ ‘free’ camera, coming from SCII to this game I used the middle mouse button to scroll the camera. When I first started playing LoL I WANTED to use ‘free’ camera as it is what I was already used to, but alas scrolling the view w/ middle mouse in LoL was unberably laggy/sluggish. I must admit I havent tried it much since you added the “smoothing” option in Lulu’s patch, but now that I’m more used to locked it would be hard to get used to at this point. I do however often unlock the camera for ganks (I typically jungle) but I usually use the minimap to position the camera where I want it as its more percise and works better for me.


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CrimsonBlader24

Senior Member

04-27-2012

I started off playing locked screen all the time. It was easier to manage while I was learning to play the game. But my friends kept teasing me and telling me that unlocked was much better. I didn't really pay much attention to them... for a while. But I HATED the purple side because I just couldn't see as much with my locked screen. Also, as I started trying out more and more characters, ones with longer ranges on some abilities (such as Nocturne and Xerath) weren't as viable for me to play.

My solution? I started unlocking my screen occasionally when playing purple because it got to the point where I had to. It was challenging and annoying, but I gradually started to unlock my screen for longer and longer periods of time. I still haven't weaned myself completely off locked screen, and perhaps I never fully will. I unlock it less when I'm playing blue, but even now I'm starting to find myself unlocking the screen more and more on the blue side. And unlocking has allowed me to play Nocturne (who is really fun) and other longer ranged characters. I still have issues in team fights sometimes because I can't manage an unlocked screen nearly as well when things start to heat up.

It is funny how naive some people can be about locked screen though. Just because I used locked screen, doesn't mean I can't click on the mini map to look at another location, or unlock my screen when necessary.


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Reynmaker

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Senior Member

04-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
I am still not convinced that flipping the camera won't mess up communication and we're *definitely* not flipping the camera for everyone on purple team. We would not up-end the experience of the vast majority of players in that way. If the map were actually symmetrical across the river we could do it because it wouldn't matter which side you were on, but it's not and dragon/baron/jungle layout does matter. We would not, all of a sudden, mirror the map when you're on purple because that would be incredibly disorienting for players.
I don't understand this statement. How exactly would flipping the camera disorient players ? If a camera flip is implemented:

Blue support and AD carry go bot,Purple Support and AD carry go top.

Blue AP carry goes mid, Purple AP goes mid.

Blue Solo goes top, Purple solo goes bot.

Everyone, is looking forward, towards the enemy. Both teams are in exactly the same place, but with a different camera view. So where is the communication loss ?

This map orientation change can easily be communicated to the community with a video in the same with that the expansion of the Bot roster was communicated in a video.


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Reynmaker

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Senior Member

04-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
I disagree that it isn't a problem on the blue side, the problem is *worse* when you're on purple side. No matter what, with locked camera right now you're always going to have a poor field of view below you. It happens that this is a good compromise view on blue side in the laning phase, but even that is not ideal. If I'm at bottom I would actually want to see more up and to the left of the screen so I can see the lane and see a champion that is coming in to gank. At top it is the reverse, I want to see more to the right and down. In mid it really depends on what you think you want to see.
I agree with this, a band-aid solution to this for purple would be, as I think has been mentioned before, locking the camera off-centre for purple team, so that the champ is more to the top right corner of the camera view, affording players a more forward looking view.


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Scarey

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Senior Member

04-27-2012

I have read about half of the thread and unfortunately don't have time to read the second half. Please forgive me if this has been suggested, I just wanted to put the idea down before I forget about it.

What about a key that locks you into a specific part of the map? That way, at the beginning of a match when you're laning you can have the benefits of using unlocked mode (easily targetting minions for last hits and view of the area you want) without the detriment of unlocked mode (view scrolling when trying to skillshot at the edge of your screen).


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DarkÇide

Member

04-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
Just because flipping the view or zooming out more is the most obvious solution that seems to solve your problems, doesn't mean it's the best. And furthermore, internally they are not solutions that I can build consensus behind. I've laid out the reasons for that as best I can in previous posts but it comes down to this:

* Zooming. Game design decision that's been discussed internally extensively.
* Flipping the view. Incredibly amount of tech and map rework because things are laid out in a view dependent manner. Not only that, from a UX perspective it introduces confusion because you start at the same point, but the map layout (jungle/baron/dragon) will be different depending on which side you are on.
It's not just that it's just the most obvious solution, it's the fact that it's the only solution that is inherently balanced in that it gives each team a equal (or mirrored) set of tools to work with in the competition. As we know from game theory a game is little more than artificial conflict governed by rules at it's core, and if the rules are not equal for parties on either side of the conflict then the game is asymmetrical. While League of legends has asymmetrical GUI and HUD design, the core balancing features depend on a symmetrical map and control systems to achieve it's balance.

I understand why a zoom expansion isn't going to get past the core design team because they have to be concerned with champion balance and playstyles, and any zooming range changes would affect too many champion's balancing issues all at once.

But I and many others still insist that the tech work it would take to support a mirrored map view would be worth it in that it would be the superior solution in light of the camera's view angle and other issues. And the communication's argument, while a valid point to an extent, does not convince players who are championing a mirror view option because we just feel that the communications issues that would arise from a change could be overcome and forgotten by anyone who chooses to use the mirror view option, where the issues of the purple team's plight can not be so easily overcome.

It almost seems as if the only real reason you can't risk putting resources into supporting a mirrored view option is because you don't want to be criticized by the community over putting work into the wrong area of the game by players who don't care much about the asymmetry. I can see this being a heavy weight to carry and I have sympathy for you in having to take on the public relations part of your job, but I am also a passionate gamer and this issue really gets to me because as a gamer the solution seems all too easy to fix considering how much it impairs my ability to enjoy League of Legends.

I can has job at riot to? I can try to cut down on the snarky


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boourns

UI Designer

04-27-2012
25 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkide View Post
It's not just that it's just the most obvious solution, it's the fact that it's the only solution that is inherently balanced in that it gives each team a equal (or mirrored) set of tools to work with in the competition. As we know from game theory a game is little more than artificial conflict governed by rules at it's core, and if the rules are not equal for parties on either side of the conflict then the game is asymmetrical. While League of legends has asymmetrical GUI and HUD design, the core balancing features depend on a symmetrical map and control systems to achieve it's balance.

I understand why a zoom expansion isn't going to get past the core design team because they have to be concerned with champion balance and playstyles, and any zooming range changes would affect too many champion's balancing issues all at once.

But I and many others still insist that the tech work it would take to support a mirrored map view would be worth it in that it would be the superior solution in light of the camera's view angle and other issues. And the communication's argument, while a valid point to an extent, does not convince players who are championing a mirror view option because we just feel that the communications issues that would arise from a change could be overcome and forgotten by anyone who chooses to use the mirror view option, where the issues of the purple team's plight can not be so easily overcome.

It almost seems as if the only real reason you can't risk putting resources into supporting a mirrored view option is because you don't want to be criticized by the community over putting work into the wrong area of the game by players who don't care much about the asymmetry. I can see this being a heavy weight to carry and I have sympathy for you in having to take on the public relations part of your job, but I am also a passionate gamer and this issue really gets to me because as a gamer the solution seems all too easy to fix considering how much it impairs my ability to enjoy League of Legends.

I can has job at riot to? I can try to cut down on the snarky
You're missing the fact that the map is not symmetrical at all... only the lanes are. That's also why from my perspective this is a non-starter in addition to the technical issues. If you look at the jungle and baron/dragon layouts they are not the same between blue/purple.

You either have to choose between having top/mid/bottom in the same orientation, but your jungle is "backwards" and dragon/baron are on the wrong side of the river. OR your jungle looks the same, but dragon and baron swap places and top/mid/bot are reversed. Either way there's tons of opportunity to confuse people when they jump into a game. Which orientation is it going to be this time? Both blue/purple look superficially the same, but are subtly different, seems really confusing to me.

Sorry, but I don't find that to be an acceptable solution to the problem, especially considering the cost. It's a natural feeling solution, but in practice too problematic IMHO.


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Kikhan

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Senior Member

04-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
You're missing the fact that the map is not symmetrical at all... only the lanes are. That's also why from my perspective this is a non-starter in addition to the technical issues. If you look at the jungle and baron/dragon layouts they are not the same between blue/purple.

You either have to choose between having top/mid/bottom in the same orientation, but your jungle is "backwards" and dragon/baron are on the wrong side of the river. OR your jungle looks the same, but dragon and baron swap places and top/mid/bot are reversed. Either way there's tons of opportunity to confuse people when they jump into a game. Which orientation is it going to be this time? Both blue/purple look superficially the same, but are subtly different, seems really confusing to me.

Sorry, but I don't find that to be an acceptable solution to the problem, especially considering the cost. It's a natural feeling solution, but in practice too problematic IMHO.
As a player I totally agrre on this part.

I am not sure I agree with the flipping the UI part. All be it if it is a huge technical part then I can understand that to a certain point. It just seems to me that flipping the UI is not a huge technical issue from what I have understood about this problem being discussed ad naueseum for years. It seems to have some technical difficulty attached but, not a huge amount compared to actually flipping the map and such.

I understand you still lose some vision either way. That people can still circle around above you. This happens considerably less often then the majority of play that happens. For the bottom lane people on purple side that have lost contorl of their lane and are sitting on their turret. The bottom lane certainly suffers the most with the UI on bottom. If the bottom lane is pushed then it becomes a disadvantage only if they are being bad and not being pushed with ward vision protection.

Top lane suffers really only on the blue side a little but, again if they are pushed without ward protection this is their own fault as well.

As far as the UI is concerned flipped or not. If it is ever implemented would it be possible to make it a toggle to be top or bottom and maybe switched at times during the game?

My understanding is that the UI Flipped has always just been purely shot down and never even tested. Anyway to even attempt some rudimentary testing with say newer players instead of experienced players that would be biased?

I understand that the angle of the camera changes the vision size and distance but, to have always seen this idea automatically shot down is frustrating with out ever hearing if it has even been tested or implemented in anyway or that it will ever be even an option.


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Sedgitize

Junior Member

04-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChanceDriven View Post
Pardon me, but can anyone offer an arguement for why locked camera isn't a disadvantaged play style anyway? I'm not talking about preference. I mean if you lock your camera you cannot watch anyone else on your team or be of use to them unless you walk next to them...

I believe locked camera was training wheels and seriously mess with gameplay... long skills shots have to be shot from the hip with it on. I am curious if anyone who plays like this can even move up in skill.
As of now locked camera is disadvantageous depending on the champ. Both options are not great though right now...

Advantage to locked = When using a high mobility champ and I'm in the **** I'm not losing my champ on the screen easily and I'm not having to readjust every 3 seconds while trying to fight and control my champ... unlocked sucks on some champs like the newest one (Hecarim) for instance.
Disadvantage to locked = You can't see the other team gearing up long range skill shots half the time, or any of the time when you're on above your opponent on the map lol. This coincides with an inability to use your own long range skill shots.

It is generally easier to use unlocked for long range champs. They tend not to be moving around as much so you have less camera movement to deal with, and you can actually see where you need to... however you're ****ed if someone tries to gank you because you won;t see it coming.

High mobility champs (usually melee) can be held back greatly by unlocked though. All that movement and action going on is a lot of moving the camera when you need to be using your skills, moving, or changing targets.


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Sedgitize

Junior Member

04-27-2012

Sorry for double post, but it is unrelated to my above post...

A possible fix for this is simply to add in another 5v5 map. Make it like Twisted treeline so that both teams have an equal view, but we can play 5v5 on it...

Community gets hyped up for new map, and it's actually fair. Players who prefer Summoners' Rift can still play summoners' rift.

... though I guess this should go in a new map suggestion area of the forums... I just thought it was important here.