Locked Camera Discussion

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alaskaneagle

Senior Member

04-26-2012

54367

No response? wtf

Quote:
Originally Posted by alaskaneagle View Post
I really like the idea of having a hotkey you can set to orient the screen similair to hitting space bar except in a spot you designate in relation to your champ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alaskaneagle View Post
54367

I read most. This stuck out right away though and I'd like to know Why...

""I don't think changes to camera angle or fov are likely to pass muster either, we limit zoom out and control the view angle so players with the money to buy larger monitors/faster video cards/higher resolution don't have an advantage.""

How would this benefit a more expensive screen more than a low cost screen (and cards and res). I don't get how it'll help one set of people more than another could you please expand on this?

Also I don't see how making both teams have the perception of moving up would hurt the game at all. It can't be all that difficult to do since all other games like this I"ve played do it already.

And the easiest idea I've seen to fix it is making a hot key that you can set at the begining of every game to align the screen a certain distance from your champ. Basically instead of centering on your champ have it center where you pick (I'd pick above my champ to the left when playing bot, above to the right on top so I can either see the enemies hovering just below the camera who are hitting me or the turret who's range is farther than I can see)

I'd also be a bit disturbed by the statistic of how many people play with screens unlocked vs. locked. Beginners tend to play locked. If the majority of your new players are just smurf accounts it means your company might not be attracting enough new people. I point this out since I've seen this trend kill games before.


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boourns

UI Designer

04-26-2012
19 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzerfaust View Post
Hmm, you can always press space to recenter the view, so it just felt to me like the issue (at least one of them) was losing track of your champ at key times; if you see the moving towards the edge of the screen, you can readjust accordingly.

How about an option that left your camera 'unlocked' but dragged it along if you moved outside of a 'box' (say more than 1/3 or 1/2 of the way towards the edge of the screen). Just spitballing here, curious to see what seems like would actually 'feel' better.

(I definitely think things that might cause clutter to some should be optional, but that shouldn't be too much of an issue. The bigger issue is letting people know about the option vs turning it on by default and hoping they know they can turn it off.)



Unfortunately atm, I don't have that much time to game... (We ended a bit early Monday and Tuesday, but I was scheduled for 45 hours... of overtime this week.)

<.<

>.>

Sleep soon so I can get ready for a short shift! (Yes, 12h shifts are 'short,' I had a 16 yesterday...)

If the 'something' in question happens to be a job at Riot however, I would more than happily call off!
We're always hiring and we love candidates who play our game and are also awesome at their jobs! Just sayin'


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boourns

UI Designer

04-26-2012
20 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Talakki View Post
My main issue with unlocked camera isn't losing my champion so much as the fact that the camera scrolls. When trying to play with unlocked camera I have had many unnecessary deaths due to accidentally flinging my camera into the jungle when I'm trying to run away or fire a skillshot because my cursor went to the edge of the screen while doing so. To me this is a far bigger concern than having my champion centered in the screen. That's why I don't really like these "half and half" fixes because they all involve the camera still scrolling to some degree.

I just feel like the "being able to see champion in a team fight" is an issue that everyone is going to face regardless of their camera preference simply because having ten champions in a crowded space firing off abilities and all kinds of buffs and debuffs active just creates a lot of clutter, it's got nothing to do with the camera being locked or unlocked. The "being able to see champion" when it comes to having a preference for locked is just the fact that I like having my champion always visible in my sight, with the camera locked I don't have to worry about my champion going outside of my viewing range.



I agree completely. I don't understand why there should be an "easier to use unlocked" or a "half-and-half" camera 'fix'. From what I've seen the problems with locked camera only come up when playing purple, and it's something that's been stated a lot in this thread. Why does the locked camera need to be revamped completely when a simple fix to purple's viewing range takes away the problems for locked camera players?
I disagree that it isn't a problem on the blue side, the problem is *worse* when you're on purple side. No matter what, with locked camera right now you're always going to have a poor field of view below you. It happens that this is a good compromise view on blue side in the laning phase, but even that is not ideal. If I'm at bottom I would actually want to see more up and to the left of the screen so I can see the lane and see a champion that is coming in to gank. At top it is the reverse, I want to see more to the right and down. In mid it really depends on what you think you want to see.


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alaskaneagle

Senior Member

04-26-2012

still no reply...

I feel so unloved..LoL


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DemonicMike

Senior Member

04-26-2012

I played in locked camera mode for around 2000 games before finally forcing myself to try to get used to unlocked camera mode. Although it probably took around 10-15 games to fully get used to it, it was worth it. Looking back, I wish I had played in unlocked camera mode from the day I started playing.


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boourns

UI Designer

04-26-2012
21 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkÇide View Post
Don't take this the wrong way because I'm not intending to be a smart ass Boourns, but after watching the camera lock/map flip discussion for a numbers of months now it seems like a "band aid solution" is the only thing you are open to. The reason I say that is because while you continue to state that a mirror mapping option for purple team is not a good enough solution I haven't heard even one alternative viable solution. The alternative viable solution is a fairy tale, no matter how much discussion there is, the problem isn't going to solve itself with a magic solution, the best you're going to do is find a solution good enough to shut people up without really fixing the problem. If I'm wrong and there is a solution out there, please enlighten us, but the conversation is going stale.

Some players just prefer the camera locked because it has advantages that fit their play style, and that's the most simple and straight forward way to look at it.

Laning from purple side as the AD carry is something that can set a camera locked player back enough to effectively take them out of the game. Where missing out on a gank because the same view angle problems effect a player might make a player miss a gank and missing a gank wont break your game like being zoned under your turret as the AD carry. Also it should not be ignored that ganking is much easier to do with the camera working against you because you have the element of surprise and you get to choose when you gank, you aren't stuck in the ganking phase for the entire early game, which defines your strength in mid/late game.

As a player who does well camera locked and has no plan to adjust to an uncomfortable camera control system, and who also spends too much money on LoL skins to consider himself strictly casual I can tell you that all of the solutions that aren't a full mirror view option for the purple team are "band aid solutions" and it's preventing me from taking League of Legends seriously as a game I want to invest any more time in practicing. Any better solutions that you can come up with outside of a mirror view option would improve the game on top of the mirror option, but will also fall short without the mirror option so keep trying to find additional improvements but just do us all a favor and skip ahead to where you realize there are no viable alternatives to a full mirror view option please.

Diablo 3 is in free beta this weekend, go try and and see how well camera locked play can work. I know it's a different game, but the combat mechanics have so much in common that unlocking the camera should not break your ability to play the game effectively like it does in League of Legends. But the issues of a unbalanced map due to one perspective holding a clear advantage make League of Legends feel very anti-flow.

I assume you are already familiar with the concept of flow in video games, because you strike me as an adept designer. Even though we don't see eye to eye on the whole "option" of camera lock being a viable "option" issue. I bring up flow because using mouse movement to adjust the camera during combat when you need your mouse for movement and attacking is very anti-flow for many players, I can testify strongly to that.

If it would be helpful I could attempt to further articulate the strengths of having the option to lock your camera AND be competitive from both sides of the map, but honestly I feel like the case has been made very well by many players, but hasn't been considered because, well because, I don't know why there is so much resistance... The problems seems to be that you don't take our problem seriously enough and we don't consider what you bring up as problems to the solution as problems of the same caliber. And that's just what it boils down to in the end.

I apologize if I got long winded, but I'm anxious to contribute to this conversation because it's the only real issue that prevents me from enjoying the game that has anything to do with mechanics and features, and it seems to me like mechanic and feature issues should be resolved early in a game's development cycle, not years later after being begged for by thousands upon thousands of community members.

Edit to append: I don't want to have to double post to say, this thread needs a sticky.
I'm a little more ambitious than that. I've laid out the reasons why I think even on blue side, locked camera has disadvantages. I've been listening to what you've all been saying about what you like about locked camera and I want even more responses. I'll re-iterate again, that I think there is a solution that doesn't require constantly managing your camera view for people who like that style of play. I'm interested in hearing more ideas from the community to inform my thinking. I like ideas for shifting the locked camera view or making unlocked camera easier to use or bounded, keep the discussion coming!

Just because flipping the view or zooming out more is the most obvious solution that seems to solve your problems, doesn't mean it's the best. And furthermore, internally they are not solutions that I can build consensus behind. I've laid out the reasons for that as best I can in previous posts but it comes down to this:

* Zooming. Game design decision that's been discussed internally extensively.
* Flipping the view. Incredibly amount of tech and map rework because things are laid out in a view dependent manner. Not only that, from a UX perspective it introduces confusion because you start at the same point, but the map layout (jungle/baron/dragon) will be different depending on which side you are on.


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boourns

UI Designer

04-26-2012
22 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEMx12 View Post
Suggestion for Locked vs. Free Camera:

Allow an option that let's you have a shifted view, that stays locked. I'd like it to be Locked, but with my champion closer to the edge than centered. So I hit the toggle button that let's me move the Free Camera to pan to one side. Then I click the toggle button again, to lock into place, with my Champion not Centered. So now I can keep a better view of the main battle area, with enough room to skill shots.

This is like an Intermediate Skill level camera. Free Camera is very difficult to use, or at least has a high learning curve, but to be able to use it temporarily, and adjust it on the fly according the situation would allow this suggested option to be the best option. It also is a nice bridge to get newer players more accustomed to controlling the Free Camera and bridge that learning curve gap.


Note: I'd likely not put my Champion on the edge, because I'd still want some vision on the other side of me to click/move, and see some danger, but I'd definitely manually set my own position to be 70/30.
Yes some form of offset camera seems promising, I like the ideas people are posting on different ways to control it.

What concerns me about this approach is that it could easily involve as much camera management as free camera would. It does have the advantage of keeping your champion on a consistent part of the screen.


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boourns

UI Designer

04-26-2012
23 of 82 Riot Posts

BTW, I'm getting a fix for the locked camera setting not saving QA'd right now. If my rudimentary C++ skills hold up it will make it into an upcoming patch and you will no longer have to reset your locked camera every game. We will also be able to collect accurate stats on locked camera usage.


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Arcolyte

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Senior Member

04-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
BTW, I'm getting a fix for the locked camera setting not saving QA'd right now. If my rudimentary C++ skills hold up it will make it into an upcoming patch and you will no longer have to reset your locked camera every game. We will also be able to collect accurate stats on locked camera usage.
Yay, I am eager to hear the more accurate results, I suspect you might be surprised


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Pika Fox

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Senior Member

04-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
BTW, I'm getting a fix for the locked camera setting not saving QA'd right now. If my rudimentary C++ skills hold up it will make it into an upcoming patch and you will no longer have to reset your locked camera every game. We will also be able to collect accurate stats on locked camera usage.
Hopefully its much higher than what you currently see :<

Only time i unlock camera is for long range ults and ganks, really. Would really love some modifications that help.

The best change would probably be to change the entire SR map to a left right TT esque map, but that also probably isnt something that is wanted to be done, however, maybe making it a 4th map instead so that players can choose to play it over the current SR that way nothing is really lost? =p

Might be a fix to the flipping purple team problem, set a different map for the queue where purple's map gets flipped, it will at least solve the "different perspctives for different players" problem.