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Tank Balance

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Totemism

Member

04-10-2012

Can you say with a straight face that you are happy with the way tanks are right now? Can you say with a straight face that they are fair to fight against?

I recall a quote from one of the patch note videos a few months ago that went something along these lines:

"We want to give tanks enough damage to make you want to attack them."

The only way the above statement stands true is if they do more overall damage than the dps. This mentality is completely flawed and shows a lack of knowledge about the game. What this says is "Hey! Let's make a champion with tons of CC, mobility and damage while taking little damage themselves." This is not what a tank is supposed to be. The role of tank in ANY game besides this one is to be able to withstand damage while dealing very little damage themselves. They are supposed to be a damage soak.

Why on earth do tanks have damage boost passives? Shouldn't those belong to the dps?

Why is it that tankiness = damage in this game? Atmos + Warmogs = unkillable tank on any champion. There is no reason tanks should be able to walk all over you.

This brings up another issue. Why are turrets so useless? Tanks diving me at level 4? Its ok. The turret keeps attacking minions. When it finally attacks the tanks, they take no damage from it.

These balances should not cater to the higher ELO players. They should cater to the majority of your fanbase. Most of your fanbase are not pros and can't just "dodge everything and macro well". We want to play this game for fun. I want to play the champions I find fun, not the ones that are so OP that you instantly win games with them.

A new champion has already been announced before the next one has even been released. Is Riot even attempting to balance their champions? Is power creep something that Riot is completely oblivious to?

Bottom line. This is a team game. As far as I see it, champions are relatively ok when they are soloing each other. They fail to balance according to how much of a utility their skills are to others. Rammus taunt lasting 3 seconds? That's ok alone. Rammus taunt lasting 3 seconds in a 2v1? It is a guaranteed kill. Leona getting 3 CC moves with medium damage? Ok alone. Leona combo with any other person in the game in a 2v2 lane? Guaranteed kill. Blitzcrank with 3 CC moves? Same as Leona.

Stop releasing champions and focus on the ones you have. It becomes harder and harder to balance champions when there are so many of them. Take the time to really nail those balance issues on the head.


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Jamaree

Senior Member

04-10-2012

Quote:
Totemism:
Can you say with a straight face that you are happy with the way tanks are right now? Can you say with a straight face that they are fair to fight against?

I recall a quote from one of the patch note videos a few months ago that went something along these lines:

"We want to give tanks enough damage to make you want to attack them."

The only way the above statement stands true is if they do more overall damage than the dps. This mentality is completely flawed and shows a lack of knowledge about the game. What this says is "Hey! Let's make a champion with tons of CC, mobility and damage while taking little damage themselves." This is not what a tank is supposed to be. The role of tank in ANY game besides this one is to be able to withstand damage while dealing very little damage themselves. They are supposed to be a damage soak.

Why on earth do tanks have damage boost passives? Shouldn't those belong to the dps?

Why is it that tankiness = damage in this game? Atmos + Warmogs = unkillable tank on any champion. There is no reason tanks should be able to walk all over you.

This brings up another issue. Why are turrets so useless? Tanks diving me at level 4? Its ok. The turret keeps attacking minions. When it finally attacks the tanks, they take no damage from it.

These balances should not cater to the higher ELO players. They should cater to the majority of your fanbase. Most of your fanbase are not pros and can't just "dodge everything and macro well". We want to play this game for fun. I want to play the champions I find fun, not the ones that are so OP that you instantly win games with them.

A new champion has already been announced before the next one has even been released. Is Riot even attempting to balance their champions? Is power creep something that Riot is completely oblivious to?

Bottom line. This is a team game. As far as I see it, champions are relatively ok when they are soloing each other. They fail to balance according to how much of a utility their skills are to others. Rammus taunt lasting 3 seconds? That's ok alone. Rammus taunt lasting 3 seconds in a 2v1? It is a guaranteed kill. Leona getting 3 CC moves with medium damage? Ok alone. Leona combo with any other person in the game in a 2v2 lane? Guaranteed kill. Blitzcrank with 3 CC moves? Same as Leona.

Stop releasing champions and focus on the ones you have. It becomes harder and harder to balance champions when there are so many of them. Take the time to really nail those balance issues on the head.


Name a tank that honestly does a lot of damage...honestly, on a side note, STOP BUILDING PURE GLASS CANNON!!! The only thing I'm getting from this post is that "All I do is build glass cannon so tanks need a nerf."


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Megaman Prime

Senior Member

04-10-2012

I agree with tanks being only CC, not damage.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

04-10-2012

Quote:
Totemism:
Can you say with a straight face that you are happy with the way tanks are right now? Can you say with a straight face that they are fair to fight against?

Yes I can, although I think most "tanks" like Allistar, Leona, Sejuani, etc actually need buffs.

However, I think you mean bruisers, in which case my answer is still yes. I am happy with how the majority of bruisers function right now.

Quote:
Totemism:
I recall a quote from one of the patch note videos a few months ago that went something along these lines:

"We want to give tanks enough damage to make you want to attack them."

Because otherwise they would be useless, and the only way to force you to attack them would be to give them such a high amount of cc that two tanks literally stop you from doing anything during a fight (to clarify, I mean they would need so much aoe cc that two tanks could completely lock-down a team of 5 players indefinitely and without end). Dying during a long fight where you cannot do anything is not fun, so you should prefer the damage.

Quote:
Totemism:
The only way the above statement stands true is if they do more overall damage than the dps.

Your logic on this portion is inherently flawed. You are assuming that a champion actually needs more dps than you in order to be worth focusing, when in reality they only need enough damage to threaten you. Currently bruisers inflict about 35-60% of the damage of a carry late-game; but since carries build so squishy they still die quickly to that lower dps so they must avoid or kill the bruiser unless their team can lock him/her down first.


Quote:
Totemism:
This mentality is completely flawed and shows a lack of knowledge about the game. What this says is "Hey! Let's make a champion with tons of CC, mobility and damage while taking little damage themselves." This is not what a tank is supposed to be. The role of tank in ANY game besides this one is to be able to withstand damage while dealing very little damage themselves. They are supposed to be a damage soak.

Damage soaks only work if you can physically force the opponents to attack you. "Tanks" are inherently different in pvp than they are in PvE rpg games. In PvE games, AI's are designed with a system where they can only attack the tank first rather than making the intelligent decisions that a human would make.

Quote:
Totemism:
Why on earth do tanks have damage boost passives? Shouldn't those belong to the dps?

Bruisers are a type of dps, but they do not have nearly as much damage as a carry. They are closer to a mage's damage, but they usually inflict less damage overall.

Quote:
Totemism:
Why is it that tankiness = damage in this game? Atmos + Warmogs = unkillable tank on any champion. There is no reason tanks should be able to walk all over you.

Building a mix of defense and offense is always better in 1v1 and small fights than pure offense or defense, but bruisers are manageable with team coordination and in large fights. Either way you need to at least be tough enough to survive long enough to get into range and inflict some damage. The only reason why "carries" are viable is because you have these bruisers, supports, mages, and tanks locking people down for you.

Quote:
Totemism:
This brings up another issue. Why are turrets so useless? Tanks diving me at level 4? Its ok. The turret keeps attacking minions. When it finally attacks the tanks, they take no damage from it.

Turrets deal a lot of damage. Bruisers and tanks are just tough enough to take a few hits.
Furthermore, the turret is only aggro'd by players once they start damaging you and they will focus on the attacker until he dies, becomes untargettable, or leaves range.

Turrets themselves were changed to penetrate armor and inflict less initial damage to champions a while back. These changes were actually more helpful to the squishiest champions than they are to many bruisers and/or tanks, but they do still help some bruisers/tanks in the early game.

Quote:
Totemism:
These balances should not cater to the higher ELO players. They should cater to the majority of your fanbase. Most of your fanbase are not pros and can't just "dodge everything and macro well". We want to play this game for fun. I want to play the champions I find fun, not the ones that are so OP that you instantly win games with them.

Glass cannon builds are an inherently stupid idea. They only work in League of Legends if your team has the crowd control and coordination to keep the glass cannon from getting nuked during a fight. Carry players need to be very good at positioning, and they need to be able to recognize the defenses they need when their teammates are unable to protect them during a fight.

In single-player RPGs, glass cannon does not work unless you have ridiculous range or some mechanic that keeps you from taking damage.
In MMORPGs, squishy high dps can only exist because they have a tank and a healer, and all creeps are programmed to automatically attack the tank based on threat or some other mechanic.

A squishy damage-dealer with no defense is as worthless as a tank with no damage, and neither of them is viable without team coordination or a ridiculously broken mechanic that completely overshadows then inherent weaknesses of their decisions.

Quote:
Totemism:
A new champion has already been announced before the next one has even been released. Is Riot even attempting to balance their champions? Is power creep something that Riot is completely oblivious to?


Riot wants about 100 champions. Since they are so close and they've skipped a 2-week cycle, it makes sense that they would start releasing 2 champions in the same 2-week period. They are nearly done.

Quote:
Totemism:
Bottom line. This is a team game. As far as I see it, champions are relatively ok when they are soloing each other. They fail to balance according to how much of a utility their skills are to others. Rammus taunt lasting 3 seconds? That's ok alone. Rammus taunt lasting 3 seconds in a 2v1? It is a guaranteed kill. Leona getting 3 CC moves with medium damage? Ok alone. Leona combo with any other person in the game in a 2v2 lane? Guaranteed kill. Blitzcrank with 3 CC moves? Same as Leona.


If these statements were true, it would always be tank+carry bot lane instead of support+carry.

Quote:
Totemism:
Stop releasing champions and focus on the ones you have. It becomes harder and harder to balance champions when there are so many of them. Take the time to really nail those balance issues on the head.


As I said Riot is nearly done releasing champions; furthermore, the champions they have released are suprisingly balanced compared to what you find in similar games.


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Totemism

Member

04-10-2012

Quote:
Jamaree:
Name a tank that honestly does a lot of damage...honestly, on a side note, STOP BUILDING PURE GLASS CANNON!!! The only thing I'm getting from this post is that "All I do is build glass cannon so tanks need a nerf."


Amumu, Rammus, Galio, Mundo (might as well call him a tank), and Shen. Malphite can also do quite a bit of burst damage, but I am ok with where he is at. Why do you assume I build glass cannon? I do when I know I can get away with it, but even when I have to stack defense it doesn't matter because tanks can beat on your without taking any damage. The point of this is that if both parties build tanky, the tank will always win. Amumu pure tank vs a well built carry with some good MR items? Amumu will always win with half of his health to spare.

@Acesandspears

I am not talking about bruisers. I am talking about tanks. Even in the case of bruisers, building pure tank items should never equate to a win. Building pure tank items should never ever allow you to outdamage someone with a balanced build.

There is no difference in PVE and PVP tanks. Agreeably tanks need to do damage to be considered a threat, but in the long run they should never be able to outdamage a class meant to deal damage, once again just by building tank items.

Turrets are supposed to attack you like you mentioned, but many times they don't and continue to attack minions even if they are beating you under your turret. Their aggro range is short and they are really no threat for a tank. Nerfing turrets was overall a good thing, but that only made tanks stronger.

You also assume I build glass cannon...I don't... In a fight between a tank with 3 defense items and 3 attack items and a fight between a dps with the same ratio of items, the tank will always win with health to spare. This is assuming we disregard player skill. Balance should never rely on player skill; balancing on champion difficulty is a different story.

Bot lane carry + tank always wins against a carry + support, at least at my ELO. Game meta is not always the best way to win a game.

I hope what you are implying is right and riot stops releasing these money-driven champions when they hit 100. At that point I am looking forward to a 5000 word balance patch.


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Merluza00

Senior Member

04-10-2012

Imo if they do no damage you can just avoid as much CC as you can and then just ignore them and dash/flash/blink/ult to the carries, finish them quickly and then kill the tanks with your teammates.
Galio, Shen, Maokai, Malphite, Cho or Nautilus can not kill you easily if they are building tanky. I think the real problem is that there are dps champions who are NOT tanks but can be built tanky and deal a lot of damage. The dps champs that can moderately tank are much more annoying ( I wouldnt say game breaking yet) than the tanks that can deal moderate damage.


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invincible13matt

Senior Member

04-10-2012

Quote:
Totemism:

There is no difference in PVE and PVP tanks.


Critical logic failure.

There will always be an inherent difference in the mechanics of something played against a computer and something played against a person until we can develop a "true" AI.

When I am playing PvE (and I am right now) I have low/no cooldown skills that allow me to easily peel enemies off the mage because their programming tells them to come attack me now. They have no way of realizing how bad an idea it is to attack something that's only taking a few hundred (out of about 16,000) damage per hit.

When I am playing a PvP tank, I have no such ability to force something to attack me except on very specific champions, and then only for a few seconds. They won't keep attacking me once they can help it unless they consider me a legitimate threat on my own. Otherwise, they'll go after easier targets.


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Jamaree

Senior Member

04-10-2012

Quote:
Totemism:
Amumu, Rammus, Galio, Mundo (might as well call him a tank), and Shen. Malphite can also do quite a bit of burst damage, but I am ok with where he is at. Why do you assume I build glass cannon? I do when I know I can get away with it, but even when I have to stack defense it doesn't matter because tanks can beat on your without taking any damage. The point of this is that if both parties build tanky, the tank will always win. Amumu pure tank vs a well built carry with some good MR items? Amumu will always win with half of his health to spare.

@Acesandspears

I am not talking about bruisers. I am talking about tanks. Even in the case of bruisers, building pure tank items should never equate to a win. Building pure tank items should never ever allow you to outdamage someone with a balanced build.

There is no difference in PVE and PVP tanks. Agreeably tanks need to do damage to be considered a threat, but in the long run they should never be able to outdamage a class meant to deal damage, once again just by building tank items.

Turrets are supposed to attack you like you mentioned, but many times they don't and continue to attack minions even if they are beating you under your turret. Their aggro range is short and they are really no threat for a tank. Nerfing turrets was overall a good thing, but that only made tanks stronger.

You also assume I build glass cannon...I don't... In a fight between a tank with 3 defense items and 3 attack items and a fight between a dps with the same ratio of items, the tank will always win with health to spare. This is assuming we disregard player skill. Balance should never rely on player skill; balancing on champion difficulty is a different story.

Bot lane carry + tank always wins against a carry + support, at least at my ELO. Game meta is not always the best way to win a game.

I hope what you are implying is right and riot stops releasing these money-driven champions when they hit 100. At that point I am looking forward to a 5000 word balance patch.


I would bother arguing with you, but you are simply going to cover your ears, act like a five year old, and cry "Lalalala, I'm right and your wrong, everything else except what I say is wrong." So I'm not going to bother, luckily, Riot isn't going to listen to bad players like you and chances are some of those champions might be getting buffed.

No, full tank Amumu doesn't do a lot of damage, he is all CC and utility, unless he builds AP, if then, he is squishy as hell.

Rammus has gotten nerfed so many times, he barely sees ranked anymore. In fact, his base stats are less tanky then a real tank with DBC.

Galio has good early to mid game, he is an ultimate and even then, his burst is subpar end game. He relies heavily on his team to do damage end game after champions get natural MR.

Mundo isn't a tank, he is a bruiser.

Shen is all early game damage, get past the laning phase, and once again, his damage severly cuts off.


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Carnack

Senior Member

04-10-2012

They are fair to fight against ^________^


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Invictrix

Senior Member

04-10-2012

Quote:
Totemism:
Can you say with a straight face that you are happy with the way tanks are right now? Can you say with a straight face that they are fair to fight against?

I recall a quote from one of the patch note videos a few months ago that went something along these lines:

"We want to give tanks enough damage to make you want to attack them."

The only way the above statement stands true is if they do more overall damage than the dps. This mentality is completely flawed and shows a lack of knowledge about the game. What this says is "Hey! Let's make a champion with tons of CC, mobility and damage while taking little damage themselves." This is not what a tank is supposed to be. The role of tank in ANY game besides this one is to be able to withstand damage while dealing very little damage themselves. They are supposed to be a damage soak.

Why on earth do tanks have damage boost passives? Shouldn't those belong to the dps?

Why is it that tankiness = damage in this game? Atmos + Warmogs = unkillable tank on any champion. There is no reason tanks should be able to walk all over you.

This brings up another issue. Why are turrets so useless? Tanks diving me at level 4? Its ok. The turret keeps attacking minions. When it finally attacks the tanks, they take no damage from it.

These balances should not cater to the higher ELO players. They should cater to the majority of your fanbase. Most of your fanbase are not pros and can't just "dodge everything and macro well". We want to play this game for fun. I want to play the champions I find fun, not the ones that are so OP that you instantly win games with them.

A new champion has already been announced before the next one has even been released. Is Riot even attempting to balance their champions? Is power creep something that Riot is completely oblivious to?

Bottom line. This is a team game. As far as I see it, champions are relatively ok when they are soloing each other. They fail to balance according to how much of a utility their skills are to others. Rammus taunt lasting 3 seconds? That's ok alone. Rammus taunt lasting 3 seconds in a 2v1? It is a guaranteed kill. Leona getting 3 CC moves with medium damage? Ok alone. Leona combo with any other person in the game in a 2v2 lane? Guaranteed kill. Blitzcrank with 3 CC moves? Same as Leona.

Stop releasing champions and focus on the ones you have. It becomes harder and harder to balance champions when there are so many of them. Take the time to really nail those balance issues on the head.


Wtf your actually complaining about nerfmus and Leona. Blitzcrank isn't even a tank for one. Leona and Rammus are two of the weaker tanks in the game. I have no idea where you got the idea that tanks were the problem.

People are pretty much never gonna focus the tank unless they are bad, so what the tank does is throw down his cc to mitigate enemy damage and then tank whatever damage does get thrown his way.

I can't think of any tank that can build tank and still do damage even close to an ad or ap carry.

Also no matter how much Riot slows down champion release it isn't gonna make the game any more or any less balanced. The idea that the game is harder to balance with more champions is wrong for two reasons.
1.The champion design and champion balance teams are separate.
2. Most champions never see competitive play which is where balance actually matters.


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