Can anyone poke holes in this argument?

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Tsarius

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Senior Member

04-05-2012

Objectives...I rather hope there's not objections on the map. I mean, this isn't Ace Attorney, is it?

(side note: I never really considered the argument solid at all, I just don't have facts to back a counter argument because it's mostly an argument about opinion)


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a sliding door

Junior Member

04-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetSheets View Post
This is what I drew from his argument

I included counter arguments in parentheses. But honestly, the two maps are two different styles of gameplay. Someone who excels in 3's can't just say "OMG INDIVIDUAL SKILL" start playing 5's and carry every game because of their skill. Teamwork and coordination is just as important as individual skill in 5's. Also, players in 5's can't just switch to 3's and say OMG TEAM WORK FORGET INDIVIDUAL SKILL. Because the metas for 5's and 3's are so different it's not funny. I'm a diehard SR Fan. I have tried 3's but it wasn't my thing. I felt as if Olaf and Mordekaiser just rolled through enemy teams far too easily. Twitch and Shaco are quite OP for 3's as well. It's all based on personal preference and to try and insinuate someone is a noob because they prefer a different playstyle. It's retarded. The gap between 5's and 3's reminds me of the gap between console gamers, and PC gamers. Or FPS players and RPG players. The games are two entirely different things and don't compare. Don't believe me? Start playing 3's seriously as you would 5's. Or start playing Dominion solely. Your perspective will change entirely. Metas change, builds change, playstyles change. So his claim that anyone who prefers a different game mode is entirely unwarranted.
I don't think anyone could have said this any better.
You don't go around comparing two things that have very little similarities. Why do it here?


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Wow Such Juke

Senior Member

04-08-2012

Arguing this is almost the same as arguing about different builds for a champion (AP or AD Kog, for example). They're both viable, both have their pros and cons, and both have different playstyles, so it's difficult to determine whether one is truly 'better' or takes more skill to play.

For example: One of the more popular arguments for TT is it takes much more individual skill than in 5s, while the counter-argument for SR is that it takes more skill as a team. You can counter-argue those arguments with more arguments and go on and on all day, and you won't accomplish anything except more and more hatred by respected members of each community toward the other.

The only thing I wish would be that TT gets more love. I play both maps, but TT is by far more favorable on my part and it's saddening to see nothing happening to it - except for the occasional changes to the jungle that happen to be in both maps.

EDIT: It seems like someone already posted a similar thought. I'm glad some of us are on the same page.


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DeathsAdvocate

Senior Member

04-08-2012

bump


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Du Skulblaka

Recruiter

04-08-2012

No one really needs to poke holes in it. All his points are subjective or hyperbole. And when he tries to make legitimate points, such as the part about 5v5 being "unorganized", I reflect to his statement about how 5v5 takes "skill" and deduce that he must just not have that "skill".

Also, "it's dumb" is not an argument.


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Masakan

Senior Member

04-08-2012

Sigh this just speaks for itself, Where do I even begin? All the things he said are wrong with 5v5 are pretty much the entire point of it. If you can't handle it then it's not for you.

But I think the real question isn't whether 5v5 takes skill or not, the question is does he think people are stupid for not agreeing with him?


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AdamasHaima

Member

04-09-2012

It sounds like the big issue here is your friends lack of map awareness. Given proper map awareness, a team of 5 on SR can be properly located to catch that 1 player who is out of position. In TT, getting caught out of position is not a big deal because you can get away, therefore less skill is needed to properly position your self.

As far as skill in debating goes, it seems like your friend is lacking in skill. far too much exaggeration, as well as a lack of explination as to why potions are inherently bad. Truthfully, in SR, no one is required to take potions, but they do so that they can remain in lane longer and gain xp, so that if their enemies do not have potions they must lose out on that experience. However, this xp loss can be made up for during the course of the game, which prevents snowballing from early xp loss or deaths from ganks.

Ultimately it sound like your friend is qqing about losing so much. Lets look at the three lame things that happen:
1) People stay in lane, causing the game to take longer. This can be resolved multiple ways. your friend is a person too, he can LEAVE his lane to gank lanes that are over extended, so he can resolve this by himself. Another way is he can either learn to jungle, or level up to a point where someone will jungle on the team. This will allow for someone to always be out of lane and ganking.
2) I get ganked by the whole enemy team. When the entire enemy team is missing, it is not a good time to push your lane. chances are they are getting dragon and then they will kill you for being over-extended, communicate with your team and this will not be an issue. furthermore wards (map awareness) will let you know when a gank is comming. this is not as necessary in TT because everyone is in lane, as junglers are uncommon so when someone is missing and did not have no health, they are coming for a gank. Heaven forbid that there should be more strategy involved.
3) All that must be done in team fights is spam skills. This is exactly why your friend doesn't like SR. Clearly the strategy of focusing the carry escapes him. simply spamming skills will do some damage to each person on the enemy team, but won't kill any of them. In the mean time, the enemy kills your [ranged] ad carry, ap carry and support, thus removing the majority of the damage on your team, followed by your melee ad and then tank. they are all hurt, but your team is dead, no worries, they have time to push and the go back to heal.

So really to be sucessful in SR, one must not only have the 'individual skill' to win their lane, but the communication skills to help other lanes and the positioning and map awareness skills to prevent setting themself up for a gank, but also to successfully gank other lanes in order to win.


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ElSmurfAccount

Junior Member

04-09-2012

I would argue TT takes less skill when you think about it.... Less options for teams meaning less theory crafting. SR Takes skill because of the teamfights and its not just running around with our heads cut off, their is certain **** people gotta do. I usually dont reply to posts but this one takes the cake.

Also lol @ dominion skillz


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DeathsAdvocate

Senior Member

04-09-2012

Well he did mention focusing, I think that was part of the issue he was trying to get at, that when you get focused by so many people your going to die. Im a die hard tt fan, but People here are certainly bringing to light some of the pros of 5vs that are often over looked bye us tt fans. Really the several people who just called them utterly different and nearly incomparable are the ones who have nailed it here. Just depends on your preferred play style really. If you look at it from his perspective hes absolutely right, because all of his points are perfectly valid, but as mr troll who copied and pasted the argument and edited it slightly pointed out, everything the 3s player likes, is everything the 5vs player hates and vice versa. But if you look at it from a 5vs so are they, because each prefers a totally different style of game play. In 3s you don't really have to cooperate with people...and unless your at a fairly high skill level with a nearly full premade team, organization is next to impossible in 5vs.


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brossef

Senior Member

04-09-2012

the thing is sr is just bigger, therefore it takes more skill than a small map with only 3 people, you actually need map awareness. and run good team comps besides the dumb tt meta of 3 tanky derps.