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Is it me or is lategame Kayle terrible

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an actual dog

Senior Member

04-01-2012

I've been playing her lately(build is Black Cleaver, Gunblade, Nashor's Tooth) and while midgame is fun, it seems that no matter how fed I am I drastically fall off lategame. This last game I played I was hard carrying midgame, 11/3 or something, and then about ten minutes later suddenly I just wasn't doing damage. And since Kayle's E doesn't have great range, I was too easy to focus. So wtf?


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acosn

Senior Member

04-01-2012

Hybrid builds, by definition, do not compete with purist builds. In the current meta you are literally building a sub-optimal Kayle with items like Black Cleaver, and then goofy hybrid items like HTGB and Nashtor's Tooth. It is not at all surprising you say that your end game crashes and burns because hybrid builds simply do not have an answer for items like Infinity Edge and Rabbadon's Death Cap. Mathematically speaking, you can't compete with those two items functioning within purist builds with your hybrid build.

While Black Cleaver might seem like a given because of Kayle's passive, because her passive scales to a percentage of the targets armor, each consecutive stack of BC reduces the effectiveness of her passive. It's by no means a bad item, but you're paying more for what you're getting than on just about any other character, and it's for no good reason. If you want armor penetration either take the flat-flat stuff or take a LW.

HTGB is a bad item on Kayle because....well, it just is. Spell vamp is a bad stat because she literally only has one ability that utilizes it effectively, AP is a bad stat on her because it does what AD does without the sustain, and only benefits Kayle additionally in the form of an awfully scaling heal that is already the weakest targeted heal in the game. What you're left with is an on-use you already have, and is better, and then AD and life steal. Incidentally, there's such a thing as a Blood Thirster.

Nashtor's Tooth is just a noob trap. Stinger is a great early / mid game item for Kayle but it's stuck struggling with the fact that it doesn't build into a good item- you can find a better mana regen, CDR, or AP platform in many other items.


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an actual dog

Senior Member

04-01-2012

So basically there isn't much point in playing Kayle in her current state? Hybrid is weak lategame, and if you build her straight AD then you're better of playing Tristana or Ashe or whatever.


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D00MMAKER

Senior Member

04-01-2012

i used this fofr kayle http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/kayle-hells-angel-49503
it basically explains the items itself


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Rawrful

Senior Member

04-01-2012

Why would you be better off playing Trist or Ashe late game? Build Kayle pure AD carry. She has a massive speed buff, a slow+%damage amplification and an invulnerability bubble. Oh, and a LARGE splash radius of her phys damage. She has a great kit for late game carrying.

Her biggest weakness is that without cdr (blue buff, preferably) she won't always be ranged.


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an actual dog

Senior Member

04-01-2012

Quote:
Rawrful:
Why would you be better off playing Trist or Ashe late game?


Kayle has no steroid(+10% damage is nothing next to other AD carries' steroids), no escape/dash, no hard stun.

If you use your ult on yourself then you just become a weaker version of Tryndamere - his invulnerability lasts longer and he has an escape.

And then there's that scenario where your E runs out and you don't press it again soon enough. So Kayle, still dutifully auto-attacking, rushes toward her target and becomes extremely focusable. With standard ranged ADs you don't have to worry about that.

Oh and you might say that her E counts as a steroid, but I'd say that doing significantly increased damage to a single target is more valuable in this game than doing normal damage to a target and then some extra damage to the other members of the team.


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Cenerae

Senior Member

04-01-2012

The problem lies with your build. Hybrid builds are not good for Kayle since her rework, because her ratios are rubbish (except her Q, which also scales with AD).

You're better off going with a straight AD build as if you were a normal carry.

You also seem to be misinformed. She has a +60 magic damage onhit steroid that adds splash damage, and she also has a +10% damage boost on her intended target. Those aren't bad steroids at all really. Sure, in terms of pure right click it's not as good as Trist, Kog, Graves etc, but it's good enough to get the job done. And Kayle has her ult, which is potentially a gamechanger if used well, just like Ashe's arrow.

If you take the viewpoint that 'oh well I might as well play x champion', then yeah okay, I guess Kayle 'sucks'. Or you could take the viewpoint that she's effective enough as a carry to do the job required of a carry, while also providing some utility to the team like Ashe does. And she'll actually dish out a lot more damage than Ashe can in pure right click too. If you're only interested in playing the 'best' champion of each role then by all means, move on from Kayle and go back to playing Graves or something.


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Powerstoned

Member

04-01-2012

If you're going to do a "Hybrid" build on Kayle, think more of "Hybrid-lite".

If you really like the hybrid thing, pick just one of these hybrid items as your core/early game item, and then focus on either AD (preferably) or AP:

Trinity Force
Gunblade
G.Rageblood
Nashor's
Lichbane

And then build straight one way or the other.

& IMHO Nashor's just sucks, and it does seem like a noob trap. While it was a whole bunch of nice stats that people "want", it is a relatively expensive early-mid game to get, and it keeps you from buying what you "need".

You can easily find yourself 20 minutes into a game, and all you have is a pair of shoes and a nashor's (which happens more than anyone wants to admit), and you'll still really hurting for the stats you need.

THE reason to play Kayle, which is honestly fun to play, is that nearly "OP" ranged splash damaging autoattack(which is why i prefer AD).


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Sokolniki

Senior Member

04-01-2012

The Nashor's Tooth provides a **** ton of a lot of what Kayle needs to perform consistently, that extra little bit of mana regen for the mid game, a significant increase in her attack speed, 25CDR that puts her a stone's throw away from the 38CDR she needs for 100% uptime on her E. It's that 65 AP and the cost it adds to the item that bites you in the ass though. With her old Passive and AP Ratios, Nashor's was probably a godsend... now, not so much. Personally I often grab it myself as an early item fairly frequently, but I've been looking into other builds lately as well. Since her AoE Scales on 40% AD + the Magic Damage +20% AP, her AoE On Hit procs are still significantly more damaging going as AD than AP.

So right now, I'd focus more on AS/AD than I would on trying to hybrid her with some AP and most On hit items. Ghostblade is a pretty solid item on her if you keep the active ready for Team Fights, and between that and boots, you are already at 30% CDR, only a Blue Pill, Soulshroud Aura or Mastery and maybe some runes away from CDR Cap. Infinity Edge is still the single best item you can grab for her, and the Black Cleaver is still a solid item on her. Yes, the Cleaver proc does reduce the effectiveness of her Passive, but that reduced Passive Debuff is still put on top of the 45 Armor Reduction.

Nowadays, if I am going to be building/Rushing a Nashor's, it's because I plan to push the lane repeatedly until the enemy tower falls... but that also means I'll be building a Berzerker's instead of Ionian's. Kayle performs her best as part of an AoE Team with one or more AoE CC's with only Corki being in competition with her in that scenario, is extremely strong as part of a fairly AD Brawler heavy type of team, and tends to be lacking in a poke team in harass damage, but provides extra sustain where no other Ranged ADC can in this situation. She does better than most ADC's in aiding an initiator, but Sivir definitely has her beat in this role. Most would say that she's got the weakest defensive mechanics of the ADC's... this is fairly accurate... her ult is really at it's best when you don't have to use it on yourself. When combined with her passive armor/mr shred, it means your team can actually force a "Focus the Tankies" approach to the team fights and always come out ahead as you'll be able to focus down their first two tanky while your own tanky is invulnverable, and then focus down the second tanky while your own tanky that is being focused is typically still a little bit alive as a result of Intervention. It becomes much more significantly in your favor if the enemy's front line are closely packed enough for your splash to get several of them.


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Afraa

Senior Member

04-01-2012

imo kayle is only viable as a counter pick right now

her support is subpar at best especialy since the nerfed her ult forever ago

she does have relatively good early game damage and if built ad her late game damage is decent too

she only fits in well as a counter to some mids and tops though and then you have to think if you realy want a double ranged ad comp it can work and well but it ends up being too situational to pick her over others most of the time