Kassadin - Best build for Dominion?

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SifuCalvin

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Senior Member

03-31-2012

Hey Konfetarius, you may have misinterpreted me.
I was only considering haunting guise for 20+ penetration if there were some reason to forgo the 20+ from sorc boots.
AO Alt - I don't know of a single person who would consider kassadin a threat so early on in the game that they would buy any more magic resist than merc treads or an aegis (Any null-magic mantle item).

You're also forgetting that %penetration does not add up.
The factor you're multiplying by: 0.5 (40% from VS and 10% from masteries) is incorrect.
60-9 That 9 i believe is actually 8.5 from runes, btw you should add quints in to make it 14 flat magic pen.
Anyways, the proper calculation is:
Flat 60-8.5=51.5
Mastery Penetration 51.5-10%=46.35
Void Staff Penetration 46.35-40%=27.81

Flat 60-28.5=31.5
%Masteries 31.5-10% = 28.35

I'm not factoring in percentage Crystal Scar buff either because I'm too lazy. But as you can clearly see with the correct calculations, flat penetration is still stronger against 60MR. The real breaking point is 62-63MR. If anybody has this level of magic resistance from levels 3-10, then they are poor targets for you to choose. You shouldn't be focusing tankies and shouldn't be in a position to be tanking the cc for your team. You are in and then you are out, rinse and repeat. If you get cc'ed you're already playing a poor Kassadin, and buying merc treads to compensate for poor play won't make you any better. Building a Kassadin tanky does not mean he becomes a tank in any sense. The goal is to increase his survivability while maintaining a good portion of his damage output through mana stacking (the full AP build still does significantly more damage). You are already going 9/21 masteries (Juggernaut giving you tenacity), and building frozen heart and odyns veil. You absolutely cannot sacrifice the early penetration when the tanky Kass build has such a weak opening. If you rush a void staff as early as you say, you will be deprived of the tear stacks / other mana items to effectively utilize your riftwalk for damage anyways. Void Staff and ANY percentage based penetration is designed that way for the LATE game, where Kassadin shines.


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Panwar

Senior Member

03-31-2012

If you are already getting Sorc shoes and HG wouldn't it be more effective to get an Abyssal instead of a Void Staff assuming you don't see any FoN's or Odyns on the other team?


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AO Alt

Senior Member

03-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SifuCalvin View Post
AO Alt - I don't know of a single person who would consider kassadin a threat so early on in the game that they would buy any more magic resist than merc treads or an aegis (Any null-magic mantle item).

You're also forgetting that %penetration does not add up.
The factor you're multiplying by: 0.5 (40% from VS and 10% from masteries) is incorrect.
60-9 That 9 i believe is actually 8.5 from runes, btw you should add quints in to make it 14 flat magic pen.
Anyways, the proper calculation is:
Flat 60-8.5=51.5
Mastery Penetration 51.5-10%=46.35
Void Staff Penetration 46.35-40%=27.81

Flat 60-28.5=31.5
%Masteries 31.5-10% = 28.35
True, forgot it's multiplicative. Thanks for pointing it out.
With scare aura that brings the voidstaff build to 26.4 and the flat pen to 26.9. And I think that the runes actually round up / down. And since it's .5 it should be rounded to 1. I'm not sure, but I do not believe the game factors decimals in anything but attackspeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SifuCalvin View Post
I'm not factoring in percentage Crystal Scar buff either because I'm too lazy. But as you can clearly see with the correct calculations, flat penetration is still stronger against 60MR. The real breaking point is 62-63MR. If anybody has this level of magic resistance from levels 3-10, then they are poor targets for you to choose. You shouldn't be focusing tankies and shouldn't be in a position to be tanking the cc for your team. You are in and then you are out, rinse and repeat. If you get cc'ed you're already playing a poor Kassadin, and buying merc treads to compensate for poor play won't make you any better. Building a Kassadin tanky does not mean he becomes a tank in any sense. The goal is to increase his survivability while maintaining a good portion of his damage output through mana stacking (the full AP build still does significantly more damage). You are already going 9/21 masteries (Juggernaut giving you tenacity), and building frozen heart and odyns veil. You absolutely cannot sacrifice the early penetration when the tanky Kass build has such a weak opening. If you rush a void staff as early as you say, you will be deprived of the tear stacks / other mana items to effectively utilize your riftwalk for damage anyways. Void Staff and ANY percentage based penetration is designed that way for the LATE game, where Kassadin shines.
By the time you have glacial, boots, catalyst, and tear *and* haunting / void staff, you're well around level 11. And at that point any non-ranged carry is at over 70 mr if they have the sense to get mr glyphs and mercs. If they have negatron or hex drinker (very common these days) they're at over 100 mr.

Soaking CC is not a bad thing. As kassadin is probably the tankiest on the team there's no fault in soaking ww ults and the like, instead of having ezreal or someone soak it. Besides, it's more about them being good than you being bad when it comes to getting cced. If they save the cc there's nothing you can do except not join the fight.

I do not advocate getting voidstaff before tear, nor did I ever say so. I recommend having tear, catalyst, boots 2, glacial, and THEN getting voidstaff. And then getting frozen and then getting odyn's.

Kassadin's base stats are *really* tanky with his innate. Building him tanky (and going 21 defense) does indeed turn him into a tank. Not a shen by any means, but compared to Pantheon, Wukong, Yorick, Urgot, Ezreal, Vayne, etc. he is much tankier.

% based penetration is based for when it is better than flat based. Which is at around 60 mr. I.e. Around level 10ish.


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SifuCalvin

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Senior Member

03-31-2012

Send me a screenshot of you with a Glacial, Mercs, Catalyst, tear, and void staff at level 11.
I don't believe that's possible and even if it is, the AD tanky derps are going to eat you alive that early without a frozen heart (Wukong, Urgot, Pantheon, Fiora, J4 to name a few). I see the merit of rushing an early void staff, but from the perspective of the opposing team Kassadin's early game damage is really weak. There is absolutely no reason to buy magic resist that early, the strategy just to simply burst him quick with damage. The AP Kass (RoA, Rabadons, Lich Bane) builds straight damage and handles more consistent earlier but drops off late because you're a glass cannon. My reasoning behind early pen is that without maintaining some of this early game damage, your team will lose too many points or possibly not even reach the endgame where tanky Kass has almost no competition outside Warwick.


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inFe eD

Senior Member

03-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AO Alt View Post
Kassadin's base stats are *really* tanky with his innate. Building him tanky (and going 21 defense) does indeed turn him into a tank. Not a shen by any means, but compared to Pantheon, Wukong, Yorick, Urgot, Ezreal, Vayne, etc. he is much tankier.
Ya don't say?

also, entertaining debate, watching two filthy Kassadin pickers tear into one another makes my day, especially if it's item-build related.


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twickykid

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Senior Member

04-01-2012

What runes are you all using?


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AO Alt

Senior Member

04-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SifuCalvin View Post
Send me a screenshot of you with a Glacial, Mercs, Catalyst, tear, and void staff at level 11.
I don't believe that's possible and even if it is, the AD tanky derps are going to eat you alive that early without a frozen heart (Wukong, Urgot, Pantheon, Fiora, J4 to name a few). I see the merit of rushing an early void staff, but from the perspective of the opposing team Kassadin's early game damage is really weak. There is absolutely no reason to buy magic resist that early, the strategy just to simply burst him quick with damage. The AP Kass (RoA, Rabadons, Lich Bane) builds straight damage and handles more consistent earlier but drops off late because you're a glass cannon. My reasoning behind early pen is that without maintaining some of this early game damage, your team will lose too many points or possibly not even reach the endgame where tanky Kass has almost no competition outside Warwick.
Where did I say that I have it around 11? Sure I might in a good game. What I said is that if you *have* those items, you are well around level 11. As in, people have over 80 MR.
Against the 5 physicals you mentioned only 1 of them is really affected by frozen heart. And that's fiora. They all get affected by it, obviously. But wu is dangerous because of Q and R, pantheon by e,w,q, Jarvan because of his q,e,r + first hit. If you'd mentioned vayne, ezreal and people that are hard because of their aas I'd have bought it. The extra armor you get from upgrading glacial to frozen heart is neligible.

Please clarify what do you mean when you say "early game" and doing "No damage"? Don't you get catalyst, glacial, tear and boots 2 before you get anything else (i.e. haunting gauise)? If yes, then the difference is basically that your build does more damage for about 800 worth of gold, and after that the void staff "rush" does more damage. There really isn't more to it. But if you build haunting early as freck (i.e. ignoring glacial for it, or catalyst, or tear) then that's a whole different topic.


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inFe eD

Senior Member

04-01-2012

Tried AO Alt's kass build ingame. Granted, this was in a pub game, but I terror'd harder than I usually do on Kass. It also leaves wiggle room for adjusting your build, which is another plus. Stealin' his build for my own purposes.