Dota 2 vs. LoL

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Runex4

Junior Member

03-27-2012

I also recently got my dota 2 key and honestly if you are really unbiased and look at all the factors of both games they both have pros and cons. first I shall respond to the issues you have talked about:

Summoner spells:
admittedly, they are a unique part of LoL and perhaps they are a "crutch" for bad play as you say. However the two balancing factors of summoners is first, they are basically just extra spells avaliable to all heros. if someone else can flash you can too. and they allow for excellent calculated plays if used properly. while it's true they make things possible that otherwise would not be possible, that's part of LoL and honestly I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. LoL is its own game. the second balancing factor of summoners is they can allow for whole legions of unique strategies with the same hero. customizations of builds and lanes and gameplay purely based on the summoners a hero has. For example, someone can run teleport like hotshotGG did during hanover vs moscow 5. Just because he had teleport, a whole strategy that otherwise would've been impossible was possible and almost won them the game. Similar strats such as placing wards at baron or dragon to teleport on are also possible as a result of this. They can be "crutches" for bad play or tools for good play; it depends on the user.

Ganking vs farming:
admittedly one of the things that I don't like about LoL is that there is little punishment for deaths. I still believe ganking is more viable than you're giving it credit for however: if done properly, the mid pushes to tower which means the enemy mid is stuck at tower killing creeps which gives that mid freedom to gank while losing minimal farm and possibly getting his team kills, buff control, dragon, a tower, whatever. and ultimately, it's usually control of buffs, dragon, baron, and towers that wins the game in the long run, not just CS or kills. Both kills and CS are merely tools to help secure those other more important objectives (essential tools, but tools nontheless) Also, with the snowball meta, kills matter a lot more because 1 death means the enemy lane gets ahead; they get more CS, the gold from a kill, experience from being in lane, potentially getting or damaging your tower, and a chance to freely shove the lane and buy and come back with a gold advantage in items. It's not that it's meaningless or that farm is the only thing useful in LoL, it's just a different type of gameplay from Dota.

Hero/Champion Design
this one I agree with pretty much 100%. at this point the heros ARE getting cookie-cutter and boring in LoL and their more creative heroes are still lack-luster compared to the heros in Dota. I like that LoL is its own game and I don't think it's inherently worse than dota but I don't think they should gimp themselves on the creativity in making heros especially at this stage of the game where there're tons of heroes and the game is no longer new.

Game Features:
While Dota 2 does have some cute game features like the voice chat thing (a nice addition but skype/ventrillo are better quality and commonplace enough in my experience) and it IS nice to be able to spectate any game--that is a cool feature that I like and I admit the Riot crew has been pretty sloppy about actually adding new things. Dominion was a fantastic addition but they haven't done jack since then, they scrapped magma chamber entirely and all they've been doing is adding new heroes and no actual game features. and if they do change something they just mess with the already perfectly fine and established jungle in the summoner's rift. to Riot; Make something new and interesting!

that being said, Dota 2 has disappointed me with their features as well. While they do have a couple nice additions, they left some ridiculous minor things out; for example: in actual gameplay there is no way to hit a single button like TAB and see your team's Items or CS, you can do this easily when spectating but in game you have to freaking click individual heros to see what they have and there's no way to check enemy items unless they are on your screen at that time and if you move your champion the select goes right back to your champ. and having no way to see any CS but your own is ridiculous. not seeing the enemies' cs is mediocre but acceptable, not seeing your own team's CS is plain stupid. Also the pathing in Dota 2 is silly; I understand keeping the same map as Dota 1 and keeping a lot of the features the same in order to promote the same gameplay but as it is they've added literally NOTHING to dota. it's Dota with half the heros, no -rd, no -swap, and slightly better graphics that are FAR sub-standard to the modern age graphics. Compare Dota 1 to Dota 2 to the difference in graphics between Sc1 and Sc2. that's what i'd expect from a sequel to a great game like this. I don't see that they've done anything to improve; they've just re-made dota and updated the graphics very slightly, added a feature or 2 and are going to sell the same game for millions. I would expect MUCH more from a sequel and to be honest though I like Dota 2, I've been very disappointed overall.

I'm going to respond to the rest of your issues but this post is way to long as it is so I'm going to post this one first!


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TenseiSan

Senior Member

03-27-2012

Are you serious about the graphics? Keep in mind what considerations Valve has to make here: the graphics have to be pretty, but also functional and clean so you can immediately see what is going on. In addition, the engine has to be extremely scalable so it can run on ****ty internet cafe setups as well.

They can't just put in HD quality Crysis-level terrain and vegetation where every blade of grass is lovingly rendered as it sways along with the wind, because it would oversaturate the screen with details and make the game hard to read, not to mention the hardware considerations.

The entire map has to constantly be rendered in full detail because it has to be possible to instantly move the camera anywhere without any detail loss or texture-pop in, so I think considering all of that, the 'cartoony' pastel coloured terrain that Dota 2 currently uses is a very elegant solution.

If you max out the graphics and compare it to any other game in the genre (and even SC2), it easily blows those out of the water. You can dislike the graphical style, but objectively speaking, the graphics are definitely up to par to 2011-2012. No other similar game puts this amount of detail in the character models with variable facial expressions and lip-synching. Maybe you've only watched lower-quality streams or are playing on a weaker comp, but I guarantee you that the game looks spectacular at 1080p with all options maxed out.


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Runex4

Junior Member

03-27-2012

Posting again..if this counts as a double-post then all I am trying to do is continue my earlier post without making too ridiculously large a wall of text. If this is wrong, please inform me and I shall happily write double the material in a single post!

Dota Lacks a Metagame:

this is the first point you've brought up that I really disagree with you 100% on. Not as an attack on your character, but first you say that LoL is casual DotA and then you complain about the depth of play required from LoL due to a complicated game-winning optimization of available heroes into set formations in set lanes which has arisen from the evolution of strategy and skill in the game from analysis of what works, what doesn't and why. If you miss the days of Nasus Malphite bot with ashe mid no jungler and corki MF top then by all means complain away! but I personally think the metagame is one of the best and most appealing aspects of LoL. Also, this metagame was not a "game design" that was inherently built into LoL but instead was a strategic optimization which arose from the better players of the game in order to dramatically improve chances of winning. While I agree it can get a little frustrating sometimes when you have to fight for the position and character you want to play, I think that it ultimately promotes players to learn a wider range of heroes and to have a better over-all game knowledge as opposed to instalocking jax with exhaust/ignite and refusing to cooperate with the team and then blaming the loss on his "noob team mates" and in Dota 2, there IS a metagame but only the best follow it and it's not as well-known to the casual gamer (yet). so we go into que and we get 4 agi hero carries and you're wondering if it's better to get a tanky guy or to get a intel hero with high utility because there's no cooperation and everyone wants to play a carry again. I try to always play with a friend in dota 2 because playing alone means Im likely to feel like Im playing a level 5 summoner's rift game where everyone instalocks master yi or some other random champion with no actual use in the game at a higher level and no one cooperates with each other and all anyone cares about is kills. I know when I play with my friends, we cooperate and typically one or all of us end up carrying the game in some way purely due to the fact that we're willing to cooperate and pick characters based on what the team needs.

However I do agree that riot should add new items and new strategies because right now the BUILDS involved in the meta are too monotonous, everyone gets IE/PD on the ad carry and everyone gets atmogs or fratmogs on the bruiser etc etc. So i do agree there's some issues in LoL and I hope Riot will take a good look at the meta currently and do something to expand the items to not ruin what's already there but instead to actually expand the game. Regardless, while I do have my issues with the metagame i don't think that not HAVING a metagame is a cool or interesting part of a game. strategy is half the appeal of these games to me and metas arise from actually thinking about the heroes and the game just like pulling neutral creeps to creep block early creeps or allow for early jungling has been a viable, cool, strategic use of features in Dota 2. it's the beginning of a "meta" because it's actual strategy instead of slamming down with whoever u want wherever u want doing whatever you want. If that's the appeal of the game to you, then play Skyrim you'll have a freaking BLAST!

4v5's are not autolosses
"If player skill is equal, a 4v5 is not winnable in LoL whereas in Dota it is." that quote kind of makes me disagree with this complaint entirely. if players are of hypothetical "equal skill" then 5 should always beat 4 because the 4 will be breaking even with the other 4 of the other team and they have 1 more player. While I too have won some 4v5s in dota 2, I feel like the reason we won it was the same reason I ever won a 4v5 in LoL; we grouped up, played smart, caught people and earned the win by outplaying them. If they were playing at the same level as we were we would have surely lost.

Better Ranking System
this is another cool feature that I like in Dota 2 that LoL should work on!

In my perspective, Dota 2 and LoL both have their pros and cons; I like both games and I admit currently Im playing a lot more Dota 2 than I am LoL, but that's because Dota 2 is new and Ive been playing LoL for a long time now. Like everyone else, Im interested in something new and exciting and re-learning the heroes and strategies of dota while bringing all I've learned from LoL has been really cool, different and fun. However, ultimately I think if people are fair to both games, they both have some things they could improve on, they both have things that have pleased and disappointed, but they are both their own unique games with different approaches to the all-new gaming genre of MOBA.


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Runex4

Junior Member

03-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenseiSan View Post
Are you serious about the graphics? Keep in mind what considerations Valve has to make here: the graphics have to be pretty, but also functional and clean so you can immediately see what is going on. In addition, the engine has to be extremely scalable so it can run on ****ty internet cafe setups as well.

They can't just put in HD quality Crysis-level terrain and vegetation where every blade of grass is lovingly rendered as it sways along with the wind, because it would oversaturate the screen with details and make the game hard to read, not to mention the hardware considerations.

The entire map has to constantly be rendered in full detail because it has to be possible to instantly move the camera anywhere without any detail loss or texture-pop in, so I think considering all of that, the 'cartoony' pastel coloured terrain that Dota 2 currently uses is a very elegant solution.

If you max out the graphics and compare it to any other game in the genre (and even SC2), it easily blows those out of the water. You can dislike the graphical style, but objectively speaking, the graphics are definitely up to par to 2011-2012. No other similar game puts this amount of detail in the character models with variable facial expressions and lip-synching. Maybe you've only watched lower-quality streams or are playing on a weaker comp, but I guarantee you that the game looks spectacular at 1080p with all options maxed out.

Noted! I stand corrected and I'll take a good look at the graphics settings on my computer right away! I am new to the game just like everyone else! thanks


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Raging Hipster

Senior Member

03-27-2012

You realise there is a button that lets you see everyones CS, gold, skills, and hero level?


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Runex4

Junior Member

03-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raging Hipster View Post
You realise there is a button that lets you see everyones CS, gold, skills, and hero level?
and which button is that?


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Raging Hipster

Senior Member

03-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runex4 View Post
and which button is that?
It is in the top left corner. I have not been playing much. But it is some button.


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Runex4

Junior Member

03-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raging Hipster View Post
It is in the top left corner. I have not been playing much. But it is some button.
checked it, it's the same as the screen you get from "\" and it only shows KDA and current gold. not cs, not overall gold, not items. -_- my point still valid


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DonkeyWorld

Master Recruiter

03-27-2012

Aside from technical improvements that Dota2 has over LoL (spectating, game client quality, ability to control d/c'd heros, etc) I really don't think one game is better than the other. They are so different. I feel like LoL will appeal more those who like high flying action. LoL is just faster. Dota2 on the other hand is more strategic due to necessity to counter enemy heroes with not only your hero pick but with your items. It takes long enough to learn how to counter champions properly without even getting to countering items. These items and duration/types of the CC among other things also makes positioning more important in Dota2 vs. the need for quick, reactive mobilization in LoL.

It's funny that OP says flash is such a crutch for bad gameplay. There have been plenty of ganks due to a flash + cc. So yeah maybe it saves noobs but it also gets them killed.

The one thing that really bugs me about LoL vs. Dota2 though is that it is so much easier to target heroes in Dota2 than champions in LoL. Some teamfights in LoL can turn into an utter mess, especially if a giant Cho'Gath is involved. In Dota2 I have never had a problem quickly targeting who I want.


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ChoppazAndDakka

Senior Member

03-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runex4 View Post
checked it, it's the same as the screen you get from "\" and it only shows KDA and current gold. not cs, not overall gold, not items. -_- my point still valid
Why do you need to see other CS but your own? If you want to see where an ally is at just quickly click on them and see what items they have and their current gold, that will give you an idea of where they are at just fine. As for enemies, I don't think you should be able to see where they are at anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyWorld View Post
Aside from technical improvements that Dota2 has over LoL (spectating, game client quality, ability to control d/c'd heros, etc) I really don't think one game is better than the other. They are so different. I feel like LoL will appeal more those who like high flying action. LoL is just faster. Dota2 on the other hand is more strategic due to necessity to counter enemy heroes with not only your hero pick but with your items. It takes long enough to learn how to counter champions properly without even getting to countering items. These items and duration/types of the CC among other things also makes positioning more important in Dota2 vs. the need for quick, reactive mobilization in LoL.

It's funny that OP says flash is such a crutch for bad gameplay. There have been plenty of ganks due to a flash + cc. So yeah maybe it saves noobs but it also gets them killed.

The one thing that really bugs me about LoL vs. Dota2 though is that it is so much easier to target heroes in Dota2 than champions in LoL. Some teamfights in LoL can turn into an utter mess, especially if a giant Cho'Gath is involved. In Dota2 I have never had a problem quickly targeting who I want.
Except LoL isn't high flying action. It's 20 minutes plus of farming and never leaving your lane because farming is worth more than ganking unless you are jungler. Spamming spells isn't high flying action because you aren't doing much damage, and because of that there's no thrill. In Dota you can harass just as hard with just repeated auto attacks on many champs, and spells hitting harder and more rewards for ganking allow Dota to have more action than LoL (and it often shows in high level games, with constant roaming and over 20 kills before the 30 minute mark).

I totally agree with the teamfight mess problem in LoL. Everything is so brightly colored, and with so many spells being shown by red or green circles, it becomes a total cluster**** of spell effects. I never have that problem in Dota 2 and only sometimes in HoN.


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