Thornmail :(

First Riot Post
123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Furied

Member

03-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaladilae View Post
I play AD carry, i still build Zeke

In fact, if you have another AD carry who also has zeke, omg...
I'll give that a try. Its cheap enough to rush mid game after IE + PD.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FDru

Senior Member

03-05-2012

Sanguine Blade + LW + Wit's End or QSS = what Thornmail?

That leaves you room for 2 other items, so you can still get your IE, Mallet, PD, whatever.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Furied

Member

03-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
that team was really out to get you, huh?


Sometimes getting super fed isn't always a good thing. In the end, all the money I was getting from killing everyone left the rest of my team under-fed to the point where Irelia and myself were sitting on over half the team money. Looking at the team comp, thornmails shouldn't have shut us down like they did, but thornmail is also one of those items like warmog's armor and stacked bloodthirsters that is ridiculously effective in duels, but loses its relative potency in larger teamfights like the kind seen on SR.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

jars

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

03-05-2012

a mr item probably would have dealt with that team. if you had say an odyns instead of a FM.

that and your ap champs should have been able to do more, so this is probably more to do with your team not transitioning well into late game. a lee sin ghost from morde should have easily won team fights


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

larkhill

Senior Member

03-05-2012

did irelia really need that frozen heart when alistar already had one? if she got a last whisper instead, she'd probably have done much better. EDIT: as the above mentioned, an odyn's would have worked as well... ANYTHING except the frozen heart really...

lux building tear and lichbane? yuck... unless she was bot, she should have just build straight AP and killed people with her combo.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Furied

Member

03-05-2012

Tried a game with zeke's. I don't see it being a reliable replacement for Stark's for AD, but for graves, it is very good. CDR for his E and Q on top of the attack speed and lifesteal seem to make it synergize very well. I shutter to think what urgot can do with a zeke's O.O.

Also, mucho respect for riot for taking the time to weigh in on the forums.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Anniie

Senior Member

03-05-2012

lol


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DreamGateMelly

Junior Member

03-15-2012

Thornmail is directly buffed by three of the stats in the Crystal Scar aura:
1- Healing reduction, the most obvious, makes lifesteal far less effective against it
2- Magic penetration increases the return damage
3- A weird one, but armor penetration actually helps the Thornmail user. His attacker is just killing himself faster, and people that build Thornmail do it for the damage return primarily

For how cheap it is it seems far too cost-effective, especially when synergized with champions like Rammus. A Rammus with Thornmail is instantly able to completely zone any auto-attacker.

Another issue is that countering Thornmail in SR is done with lifesteal, and that's generally effective enough. Counter one item with another. In Dominion, lifesteal is weaker, so you need at LEAST two items, a lifesteal one and either more lifesteal or magic resist (I'd suggest Sanguine/Quicksilver versus a Rammus) and even then you're likely to not be able to fully negate the return damage.

I agree that Thornmail should either be outright removed or replaced with a more balanced alternative. It's also one of those easy-mode items. It's very cheap and doesn't require any skill or thought to be effective with.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Redenbacher

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamGateMelly View Post
Thornmail is directly buffed by three of the stats in the Crystal Scar aura:
1- Healing reduction, the most obvious, makes lifesteal far less effective against it
2- Magic penetration increases the return damage
3- A weird one, but armor penetration actually helps the Thornmail user. His attacker is just killing himself faster, and people that build Thornmail do it for the damage return primarily

For how cheap it is it seems far too cost-effective, especially when synergized with champions like Rammus. A Rammus with Thornmail is instantly able to completely zone any auto-attacker.

Another issue is that countering Thornmail in SR is done with lifesteal, and that's generally effective enough. Counter one item with another. In Dominion, lifesteal is weaker, so you need at LEAST two items, a lifesteal one and either more lifesteal or magic resist (I'd suggest Sanguine/Quicksilver versus a Rammus) and even then you're likely to not be able to fully negate the return damage.

I agree that Thornmail should either be outright removed or replaced with a more balanced alternative. It's also one of those easy-mode items. It's very cheap and doesn't require any skill or thought to be effective with.
You have been given, and/or are spreading a lot of misinformation in this post.

1- This is healing in general, and it's global. All champions are effected by it. You as the auto-attacker are not special in the healing nerf here. Just as it reduces your lifesteal, it reduces your enemy's ability to restore HP, thus making it easier to kill them.
2- Again, this is global. ALL magic damage is increased. The auto-attacker/thornmail is not special.
3- This is wrong. Thornmail deals it's damage based on the raw damage dealt BEFORE mitigation. Armor penetration helps the auto-attacker kill their armored target faster, not the other way around.

Next, Lifesteal, even in SR, does NOT counter Thornmail. As I said, it deals it's damage BEFORE mitigation. If a target is wearing thornmail and has 150 armor, and you deal 100 damage with 15% lifesteal, the wearer takes 40 damage, you take 30 damage and lifesteal 6. You still net 24 damage taken (before MR).

To negate or remove the damage taken from Thornmail, you need lifesteal and magic resistance. Furthermore, you need armor penetration to decrease the number of hits it takes to kill your target, and thus decrease the number of hits you take. Lifesteal and armor penetration should be a core part of your build anyway. The only extra expense to you is MR.

Thornmail is not overpowered. As for being thoughtless, it's a thoughtless counter to a thoughtless playstyle. If you're too dense to break away from your AD/AS/Crit stacking in hopes you can right-click to win, you deserve to be shut down by Thornmail.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Inkyjinx

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
As for being thoughtless, it's a thoughtless counter to a thoughtless playstyle. If you're too dense to break away from your AD/AS/Crit stacking in hopes you can right-click to win, you deserve to be shut down by Thornmail.
oh snap.


123