AD Fizz is better than AP Fizz for TT Soloers!

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Exqzr

Senior Member

03-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiraisgod666 View Post
I've been playing AD Fizz for a week or two now, and i have to say i completely agree with everything you have said. I've only had one problem, and that's when i was solo top against a Garen, but even then i made a comeback.
If you are having trouble with Garen, I recommend boots of swiftness and potentially get zeal before wriggles or Sheen. This just to run out of his spin. Same for wukong.

Optionally go a little tankier. Start with Cloth Armour, leading to wriggles first and get ninja tabi. Stock some mana potions as you are getting sheen late.


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Sam

Senior Member

03-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exqzr View Post
There is no doubt about it. AD Fizz is one of the best kept secrets in LoL.

This after testing every possible combination of AD/AP and Hybrid Fizz builds. (Please note, this has only been tested for TT soloing, not premades or ranked). Although, I think a case can be made for AD Fizz in these arenas as well. I am going to try this in SR ranked and hope I don't get banned by ignorant meta players. Wish me luck.

Anyway, I found while testing this idea, I took A LOT of heat. "NOOB!" was the most frequently used term, "IDIOT!" was fairly common as well. I even had my own team mates say... Fizz is my main, and AP is the only way to play him. you are going to cost us this game, you dumb***" I say, "Whatever, We'll see".

O.k. Admittedly, I had a bunch of bad (horrible) games at the early going until I figured out the optimum build and the uniquely different play style that AD Fizz requires over AP Fizz. I would say I lost 16 out of my first 20 games and almost gave up myself so, perhaps some of these angry comments were justified...

Furthermore, I imagine that anyone who has tried AD Fizz has experienced the same struggles I did early on and likely gave up the quest and defaulted to the easier commonly accepted AP Fizz builds. And thus,. I have yet to read a guide that even tries to make AD Fizz work. AD Fizz and his power has til now never come to light!

BUT! after the first 20 games, I started to figured out a very efficient right build order and I also started to understand that I could not play AD Fizz the same way I was used to playing AP Fizz. With this new fresh approach, it was like the clouds opened up and I could start to see things very clearly.

Simply put AD Fizz is a MONSTER IN HIDING! - Unbelievably and surprisingly strong. I am not over stating this!. AD Fizz can TOP LANE Against anyone and DOMINATE. AD Fizz goes 1 V 1s vs OLAF, YI, Tryn, Riven, Fiora, XIN!!! et. al and WINS! (assuming equal gold), every time!

The reason why AD Fizz is a powerhouse killer is because of his W and they way it works under the surface]. WOW! I can not say enough about this skill.

Seastone Trident is perhaps the most underrated skill in the game. The auto "Grevious Wounds" part coupled with ACCELERATING DAMAGE, and D.O.T. as icing on the cake.

Seastone Trident completely messes up your opponent's timing and sustainability - God help them.

Coupled with a well timed Playful Trickster and the also very underrated Urchin Strike will make your opponent's head spin. Your Ult? SHARK! Well let me just say as a finisher on a runner, I laugh every time I hear the "CHOMP!" - you have slain an opponent..

AD Fizz can out damage, out sustain and gank better than ANY other Melee champ - IMHO -. I know that's a very bravado claim to make, but I have slowly but surely been proving it my last 30 games or so.

The only down side of this build and AD Fizz, is you have to be very very good with your timing. . You need to get into FROG ZEN MODE. What I mean by that is you need to develop an almost intuitive sense of timing on when to use your skill set - too early or too late and you will lose important battles that you should have otherwise won. You have to understand and get very familiar with your your hidden talents. Fizz does so much behind the scenes, that opponents just cant react effectively. They won't know how to counter you, they won't know how to kill you and they won't know how to get away from you. No joke folks.

For example, you can actually do the following against a well fed ASHE carry....

Turn on Ghost, Run towards her, DODGE her ult with E as you land on her with with it. NICE!!! Steroid up with W, Poke her. She runs and turns to slow you. Close the GAP a second time with a Q skate, and she is already almost dead. She runs again but this time to scared to try to slow you. Poke, Poke. Poke, Dead. Every time! IF necessary fling your shark at her just to be sure. You can even do this while she is protected by her turret!

In fact, you can take out almost any champ at their own turret at 50% health with Q, W, poke, E, poke, shark, poke, poke, bail and live! The shark and DOT will finish the job. Your E will lose the turret aggro. It's a beautiful thing to watch and one of the most satisfying turret dive combos you will ever pull off.

I actually had one opponent say that they thought they were watching the Matrix. after seeing me perform the above two actions. They were both mesmerized and demoralized at the same time

O.k. so those of you familiar with AP Fizz will say, "but AP fizz can do all those things as well." TRUE, he can, but it's not really the same. AP Fizz does not have the initial delivery plus follow up and or finishing potential of the continuous, relentless, accelerating hurt that AD Fizz has! Instead of using your skills as the majority of your damage, you use your skills to initiate, trap, and finish. The Toe to Toe damage output does the rest.

By making AD your primary damage source, your skill package can now be used with significantly more flexibility. You can use your skills as you need them and at the right times. In contrast, AP Fizz REQUIRES you to dish out your entire payload in one giant burst and hope it works! If you play smart, avoid all ganks, hit with your R everytime Etc. Etc. AP Fizz looks like a real good bet. But if not, AP Fizz is meh.

AD Fizz has so much more to offer over AP Fizz and can contribute even if you are having a sub par game. This Includes, jungling, minion chewing, taking down turrets, defending turrets and even damage soaking.

Any utility type role is at your disposal - which in TT is very important. You have complete flexibility with AD Fizz.

The best part is no one expects the little Frog to be any where near this deadly Your opponents will even laugh at you. The fact that your opponents will underestimate you, even sneer at you, is in itself a powerful weapon. Time and Time again I am top lane, go toe to toe with WHOEVER sneers at this small but amazing amphibian and win. "Lucky Fizz" they cry. Then they try me on for size again, I win again. "LOL AD Fizz, you suck". they fling at me. Next time, they are cautious. So I wait. Then I explode... SHARK!, URCHIN STRIKE! TRIDENT! POKE, POKE, they are near death, They Run, Lets's get PLAYFUL! Slowed and Dying they FLASH or GHOST - but is does not matter - The DOT finishes the job... This scenario is not an exception to the rule it is THE RULE. AD Fizz FEARS NO ONE.

Still not convinced? AD Fizz can easily ramp up to unmatched DPS. Without a doubt AD Fizz is the AUTO ATTACK KING. With crushing up front damage, Incredible bonus damage and that nasty D.O.T AD Fizz is a pure killing machine. Whereas with AP Fizz, If you unleash your entire package at your enemy and you don't get the kill, you have nothing left to do but run and hide. Or maybe stay close in and get lucky before you die... IMO, AP Fizz is more Glass than Cannon. And if you are going to go ALL AP, Veigar, Ziggs and so many other do a better job of it.

AD Fizz is an IRON CANNON. Played right, I would argue that AD Fizz is the best melee champ there is...


A complete guide will follow, but here is a quick synopsis . . .

Ignite/Ghost

21/9 Masteries

Marks Armour Pen
Seals Armour
Glyphs Flat Mana
Quints Flat Health

Start with Seastone Trident (W), Max first
Playful Trickster (E) Max Last (take it second to avoid early ganks)
Urchin Strike (Q), Max Second
Chum the Waters as available - perhaps the most hilarious ULT in the game.

Boot to suit. (Merc treads usually the best, all have value).
Wriggles
Trinity Force
2 of these 4 Blood Thirster, Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Blood Razor (Which two depends on your opponents and how the game is going).
Guardians or Frozen Heart

Start with Dorans Blade or Long Sword/HP. FInish Wriggles or Sheen first (depending on how "gankish the game is). Then rush to TF. and continue as best suited to wreak havoc.


A few tactics to use with AD Fizz.

- Don't be afraid to go head to head with anyone top lane. Be a Little cautious with Heimerdinger and AP Casters with lots of CC.

- Keep harassing with Q/W at every opportunity. Chase/Finish/Esape with E. Once you pop E, hold if if he stays for full effect, use the double hop to slow a runner if they try to flee. Shark to finish if needed.

- Kill at turrets with pure abandon. look for wounded opponents sheltering under the turret. Use Q to initiate, poke them. the E to lose turret Aggro. Hit Shark right on top of yourself/them, poke and bail. They will die and you will escape.

- Only Inititate with SHARK! on AP Kiters. Against AD toe to toe, just walk up to them and start the war. I don't care who they are, you will win if equally equipped. If they are a little fed. Initiate with Q, and make sure you have life steal item already bought Finish with shark on Toe to Toers.

- Against fed opponent you can still win with well timed skill use. Initiate with E. Trade a few blows. Q out of their range. Make them chase you a bit so your DOT widdles them down. Juke when possible. Hit them with SHARK as they chase. If they decide to bail, Q skate into them gain (you only need 7 seconds for it to be available), poke them repeatedly and keep chasing if they run. If they turn to face you gain, continue trading blows. POP YOUR E as you both are close to dying and just before your third Q. Your DOT is STILL LEECHING THEM INTO OBLIVION. Finish with with your third Q. Have your ignite at the ready at all times and use accordingly. (its best to use your ignite, right after the grevious wounds wear off your opponent from your W to keep their healing depressed. Note, make sure you have all the mana you need before taking on an opponent who is more fed than you.

- E plus Ghost can escape almost any bad situation. Conversely, it can kill almost any wounded opponent who tries to flee.

Supporters and detractors please comment.
No way can you win lane against a Riven or Fiora, i'll tell you that right now. :P Like theres is so much to talk and disagree on this forum post, but i cant . . . His W is pretty much a GP passive. So not really that amazing.


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Exqzr

Senior Member

03-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Såm View Post
No way can you win lane against a Riven or Fiora, i'll tell you that right now. :P Like theres is so much to talk and disagree on this forum post, but i cant . . . His W is pretty much a GP passive. So not really that amazing.
Sam,

Be honest, have you ever even played against an ad fizz? I haven't, not once. Thus far, I am the only one that I have seen in 1000 TT games.

I've tested AD vs AP in TT extensively and I can tell you AD is better. I don't say this because I have some sort of odd desire to refute your tier list, I say this because I like Fizz and I want to play him as best as possible.

Fiora... Easy to beat Top lane. Done it every time except once.
Riven... More difficult. But just involves a little baiting. Because Riven is usually overconfident, this is not hard to do.

AP Fizz... NEVER lost. Every single time I play vs an AP Fizz it's no contest. Not even close.


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SprinklerMonkey

Member

03-31-2012

i played a game as ap fizz today against you exqzr. you built your ad fizz and we even both went top lane. i ended up going 10-1-4 while you used the "biggest secret in lol" and went 2-5-1. i like that your trying really hard to prove that ad fizz is good and all but im not seeing it. you have played fizz hundreds of time while i probably have used him 25 times and i wrecked you. its a good try man but i am unconvinced. if you find the perfect build or even just want to try something out hit me up. im always down for some fizz on fizz action.


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Exqzr

Senior Member

03-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SprinklerMonkey View Post
i played a game as ap fizz today against you exqzr. you built your ad fizz and we even both went top lane. i ended up going 10-1-4 while you used the "biggest secret in lol" and went 2-5-1. i like that your trying really hard to prove that ad fizz is good and all but im not seeing it. you have played fizz hundreds of time while i probably have used him 25 times and i wrecked you. its a good try man but i am unconvinced. if you find the perfect build or even just want to try something out hit me up. im always down for some fizz on fizz action.
Monkey, you know I didn't use ad Fizz, it was a "Tank" Fizz. I had all amour and MR runes and 1/29 as my masteries for that game. I started with Cloth Armour and 5 health potions.

As well, One of your mates was your buddy and I had two very sketchy players on my side. I don't tend to lose when queuing with a buddy, but because of my contest all my queues are solo.

Finally, a snowball is a snowball. If you get it you win. Conversely, if AP fizz dies once or twice early, his game is over. AD fizz can start behind and still have an impact on the game. AP fizz can not.

Re your score: You only got two kills on me and both mine were on you. Your first one was due to the timely application of an ignite. I was trying Surge with this Tank to see if he could sustain while Surge took hold. But it was clear by this game that Surge requires an on hit build. I will admit that Ignite is superior to Surge, here you made the clearly better choice in summoner spells. Your other 8? kills were on my mates who did not know what a TURRET was and didn't understand that chasing into a bush is generally NOT a good idea.

I don't try to promote Ad Fizz because I have a need to prove anything. The whole thing really came as a surprise to me after an experiement that went well in one game. Afer that the results were very bad at first until I started to truly get how to use the Q and E during melee to totally mess with other champs. For Example: You start the fight on his side of the minions. When you Q, you slide through yours. His auto attack will make him chase you but he has to pass through this wall of minions. All the while, your minions and your DOT are leaching away. Your E can be used to escape if things are getting rough or to slow/kill if they try to flee. The Q and E used right are awesome during a sustained fight Melee to Melee champ.

I want to play Fizz as best as possible. I've played just as many AP versions and AD versions and if you read the whole thread, you will understand that is the "flexibility" not the "DPS" that comes into play in the strength of the Ad/AS build.

I am all for equal comparisons. My only goal is to find the best all around build for Fizz not the best Burst build, that is easy, it's AP by a good 20%. But AD/AS has "GOOD" burst and incredible follow up and the ability to "stay in the pocket" for quite a while.

Anyway, our game was not an equal comparison between AS/AD and AP. The Fizz you played against was a "Tank" build and I agree that this at least is showing itself to not be very viable.

My experience is honestly this. In about 25 games with AD/AS/on hit Fizz vs. AP Fizz about 22/25 winning lane and about 18/25 wins. If I start with Doran's Blade and they start with The ring. Blade wins 100% of the time (it's like 10 for 10)

I've won solo queue 9 games in a row and several 8 and 7s with AD/AS fizz but I seem to be very choppy with AP fizz. I.e. win one, lose one, win two, lose one. It's just not as consistent overall.

I am open minded, you should be as well


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Exqzr

Senior Member

03-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SprinklerMonkey View Post
i played a game as ap fizz today against you exqzr. you built your ad fizz and we even both went top lane. i ended up going 10-1-4 while you used the "biggest secret in lol" and went 2-5-1. i like that your trying really hard to prove that ad fizz is good and all but im not seeing it. you have played fizz hundreds of time while i probably have used him 25 times and i wrecked you. its a good try man but i am unconvinced. if you find the perfect build or even just want to try something out hit me up. im always down for some fizz on fizz action.
hey Monkey,

Here is my most recent game with AD fizz. 14 kills 15 minutes. All the opponents were 400+ wins (all more than my mates) and all those champs are high tier. Especially GP.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/hpd9k

Re; Ad fizz vs Ad fiora both top lane.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/5k4i6

Re ad fizz vs Ad Fiora AND ad Riven. In this game I first dominated Riven top and then Fiora came in and I dominated her as well. Note DPS for the game.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/5k54v

LoL, I can pretty much go on all day

(apologies, I forgot to convert to jpeg so the pics take a while to load).


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SprinklerMonkey

Member

03-31-2012

again, i like what your trying to do and im not trying to start a fight or anything. i just dont see an as fizz beating an ap fizz. i agree that your teamates were bad and i did play that game with a friend but my other teamate played vayne and ended with 0-4. i didnt know you went with tank runes and masteries but the only tanky item you built was ninja tabi.

the wriggles and wits end add some defence but you build those in the majority of the games you play. ok i agree that an od fizz can be ok or maybe good but as fas as damage i dont see ad ever beating a decent ap fizz. his burst is just way too high and building him ad pretty much takes all of that away.


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Foxichu

Senior Member

03-31-2012

I am officially getting Fizz, if for no other reason then how powerfully well written this thread is. Sir, I love you. Marry me?


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Exqzr

Senior Member

03-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxichu View Post
I am officially getting Fizz, if for no other reason then how powerfully well written this thread is. Sir, I love you. Marry me?
Ah well thank you. Make sure you try various versions and see which one you like the best. Let me know if I can help


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xTraCrsB

Junior Member

03-31-2012

I have been playing ap fizz a lot, and I usually do really well in random 5v5 games. However, if I end up in games where I am a weaker player (most other players have more than 2x my experience) I start out decent, and later in the game, i have the usefulness to my team of a sting-less jellyfish. Your build seems solid, as well as your argument, and thus, I shall give it a try^^

-Cheers!!


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