[Guide] Twitch – The Rat Who Fell From Grace

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Lawful

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Senior Member

07-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperness View Post
lol you really didn't say much to counter my points. expunge has a huge range, your auto attack doesn't. consider all of the ways champions have of escaping in this game. your slow only counters movement. when that trist, ezreal, trynd, shaco, etc. blink away from you you can at least get one last shot in with expunge cuz you won't be catching them after regardless of how much slow you have on them. same goes for characters who can stun and get out of your auto attack range.

and lastly, you forget about the brute firepower it offers. if an enemy champ decides to fight you instead of run or maybe gets healed by their soraka from across the map, etc. that extra damage will do you a lot more good than the extra slow.

and stop saying it's "highly" reduced by magic damage. it's not. it's reduced a normal amount like anything else.
Problem is you remove the stacks when you explunge, but if you leave the stacks be, they deal the exactly same amount of damage a maximum explunge would. And its range is **** , its bugged to be honest, there were so many times when they were still in visible range and it didn't work so your better off leaving them to go away and die from the poison and benefit earlier from the slow and extra hits in.

But don't spam this thread with flame, i already told you why explunge is a bad choice and its in the guide also written, if you would only open your eyes and read attentively.
You asked the same question twice when the answer was there without even having to ask a first time.


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Xplody

Junior Member

08-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperness View Post
lol you really didn't say much to counter my points. expunge has a huge range, your auto attack doesn't. consider all of the ways champions have of escaping in this game. your slow only counters movement. when that trist, ezreal, trynd, shaco, etc. blink away from you you can at least get one last shot in with expunge cuz you won't be catching them after regardless of how much slow you have on them. same goes for characters who can stun and get out of your auto attack range.

and lastly, you forget about the brute firepower it offers. if an enemy champ decides to fight you instead of run or maybe gets healed by their soraka from across the map, etc. that extra damage will do you a lot more good than the extra slow.

and stop saying it's "highly" reduced by magic damage. it's not. it's reduced a normal amount like anything else.
I'm gonna have to agree with with snipes here, Expunge is highly used for twitch, the point truly being stack 6 blow up, and stack more poisons, whats the point to sit there and keep 6 stacks going when it slowly drains them. odds are there gonna flash/ blink to safety. versus bursting them, then stacking more while its on cooldown. other than that the rest of your guide is stellar


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D2Freak

Senior Member

08-06-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawful View Post
Problem is you remove the stacks when you explunge, but if you leave the stacks be, they deal the exactly same amount of damage a maximum explunge would. And its range is **** , its bugged to be honest, there were so many times when they were still in visible range and it didn't work so your better off leaving them to go away and die from the poison and benefit earlier from the slow and extra hits in.

But don't spam this thread with flame, i already told you why explunge is a bad choice and its in the guide also written, if you would only open your eyes and read attentively.
You asked the same question twice when the answer was there without even having to ask a first time.
Hmmm, i dare to disagree.

6 stacks of venom + expunge = 510 damage (lvl 5 expunge yes)
6 stacks of venom without expunge = 6 (max stacks) * 8 (venom lasting seconds) * dps from venom (Which should then be 11 damage each venom tick to reach 510 damage but i cant find the damage venom should do).

If you look at it like this:

Get 6 stacks of venom on the champ while slowing from 2-3 stacks. The venom damage applies immediatly. Then hit expunge. Now u have partial venom damage + full expunge damage. This > only venom damage ofcourse. And after u use expunge and get another hit in, the venom will stack again.

Also when u assume the dot venom will kill an enemy, and not using expunge the venom can be countered bu hitting a red pot, cleanse, getting a heal, etc. If u hit expunge, before they have a chance to react it's a kill.. else it would just be a waste of time.

Then something else. How about a AP twitch. I know i know, it sounds silly at first. But when u think about it it could be viable. All twitch does late game is wait for the right opportunity in a teamfight to pop up and release hell. Since SnP applies stacks of venom at a very high rate and u should be able to get 4-5 stacks on most champs it will do crazy damage.
Lets assume u can get 400 ap, which should be possible your expunge will hit for 910 damage to each target (+ attack damge which should be a bit lower). Thats like a close range karthus ult.

Ok the hard part is to actually get al the items cause u will get a slow start. But items like rageblade and gunblade can make up for that, tho gunblade is quite expensive. And u will have the element of surprise. No one expects an AP twitch. (srs, if i saw one it would make me lol so hard he would get a free kill).

Im gonna give it a try in practice games and see how it works.


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AIM7Sparrow

Senior Member

08-06-2010

And I think the big point here to grasp is this: Slow doesn't do damage. Slow does damage only by letting you autoattack. Expunge does damage. Not only that but it has fewer ways of being thwarted. It can't be flashed out of, it can't be dodged, it can't be exhausted. Get my point? And even more, burst > dps. While that poison is slowing damaging them, they could be healing, using potions, or about to have their Soraka's or Taric's heal get off of cooldown.

Think about it some more and give expunge first a try.You'll be pleased with the results.


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Sevrin

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Senior Member

08-06-2010

Ive played a lot of twitch. He was my main levelling to 30. I doubted a lot of what your guide had to offer, but tried it anyhow, since id let the poor guy gather dust for some time, and wasn't having much luck with him.
the main differences between how i played him, and your method, is the focus on crit, and debil over expunge.

In the very early game, I find myself losing out on a number of kills due to expunge not being there for a killing blow, but once mid rolled around, holy RATBALLS did I find debil. SO much better! As soon as your damage ramps up to make those extra autoattacks hit harder than expunge (after the lane phase pretty much), the difference is just staggering. Not to mention the teamfight utility of having a full screen 5 second slow 0.o
I just grab a rank of expunge at lvl 1, 2, or 3 depending on my opponents, then leave it alone. more games than not, its worth at least one kill.

one thing worth noting, which Id reccomend you add to your guide, is the simple factoid that poison, with full stacks, is gonna tick away on your retreating victim for 96/192/288/384 (minus MR). I'd never bothered to tally that up before, but the numbers are worth seeing, and another point in debils favour.
Also, the main failing point of most lvl30 twitches, is they try far too hard to gank all game. A good team gets wise to this, and you spend a lot of time sitting in the bushes, or walk into a lot of traps, and either way, find yourself underlevelled. I've had much greater success playing him like a regular ranged dps/support dps, with emphasis on positioning, and opportunistic stikes.

One more tip: with flash in hand, you're an amazing solo pusher. You hit hard enough to really put some hurt on the turret. When they come for you, just flash over the wall and stealth...just dont burn your ambush CD on the attack speed boost unless your sure they're not coming for you just yet

the focus on crit also came with great reward. I built two avarice blades regularly, but then went with ghostblade, since its active synergizes nicely with ambush.
fusk that noise. Rushing IE yields far greater rewards.

first game with your build, I went 15/2, with a triple kill (would have been a quadra kill, but I took a lil too long finishing off the last one...but to be fair, they all grouped up in the jungle for PnS =p)

@D2Freak
...AP twitch? Seriously?.....like, seriously? have you ever....played...twitch? Your armchair quarterback is showing.
910 damage to their entire team is lovely and all, but all your getting is flat 400-MR out of your AP. Buy AD/crit instead, and you'll do more damage than that in one crit


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Lawful

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Senior Member

08-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevrin View Post
Ive played a lot of twitch. He was my main levelling to 30. I doubted a lot of what your guide had to offer, but tried it anyhow, since id let the poor guy gather dust for some time, and wasn't having much luck with him.
the main differences between how i played him, and your method, is the focus on crit, and debil over expunge.

In the very early game, I find myself losing out on a number of kills due to expunge not being there for a killing blow, but once mid rolled around, holy RATBALLS did I find debil. SO much better! As soon as your damage ramps up to make those extra autoattacks hit harder than expunge (after the lane phase pretty much), the difference is just staggering. Not to mention the teamfight utility of having a full screen 5 second slow 0.o
I just grab a rank of expunge at lvl 1, 2, or 3 depending on my opponents, then leave it alone. more games than not, its worth at least one kill.

one thing worth noting, which Id reccomend you add to your guide, is the simple factoid that poison, with full stacks, is gonna tick away on your retreating victim for 96/192/288/384 (minus MR). I'd never bothered to tally that up before, but the numbers are worth seeing, and another point in debils favour.
Also, the main failing point of most lvl30 twitches, is they try far too hard to gank all game. A good team gets wise to this, and you spend a lot of time sitting in the bushes, or walk into a lot of traps, and either way, find yourself underlevelled. I've had much greater success playing him like a regular ranged dps/support dps, with emphasis on positioning, and opportunistic stikes.

One more tip: with flash in hand, you're an amazing solo pusher. You hit hard enough to really put some hurt on the turret. When they come for you, just flash over the wall and stealth...just dont burn your ambush CD on the attack speed boost unless your sure they're not coming for you just yet

the focus on crit also came with great reward. I built two avarice blades regularly, but then went with ghostblade, since its active synergizes nicely with ambush.
fusk that noise. Rushing IE yields far greater rewards.

first game with your build, I went 15/2, with a triple kill (would have been a quadra kill, but I took a lil too long finishing off the last one...but to be fair, they all grouped up in the jungle for PnS =p)

@D2Freak
...AP twitch? Seriously?.....like, seriously? have you ever....played...twitch? Your armchair quarterback is showing.
910 damage to their entire team is lovely and all, but all your getting is flat 400-MR out of your AP. Buy AD/crit instead, and you'll do more damage than that in one crit
Exactly, i know what i'm talking about.
If i say this build works better cause i say so, then it does! Since most games i play with Twitch, if my team isn't a idiot, we faceroll, be it randoms and more-so-ever in arrangeds.

Indeed, like i mentioned in the guide , getting one point into explunge is optional, it can work well if you can't get that last shot to land and he went out of range, or if you have 4~6 stacks on someome and want the last hit, but your still in your early-mid game and the damage you deal isn't enough to guarantee a last heavy hit.

Debilate however outshines Explunge by a mile and people claiming otherwise are just...unexperienced in the least. Its 5 seconds of slow if nobody really took the time to check up and the slow is heavy, its not some small 10~15% slow that doesn't make a difference, its a 36~42% slow that keeps them from running from you until it wears off, which enables you to get all the shots you need in and let them run off with 6 stacks.

Also people mistakenly think the poison Twitch leaves is magic damage, which it is NOT so it does not get reduced by MR, its a True damage source which ignores all resistances and deals full damage regardless. Thus why it is better than explunge.

And people are blind in the least to say, they see numbers as 510 on rank5 explunge and don't realise however THAT explunge EXACTLY IS MAGIC DAMAGE and its reduced by MR by a minimum of 25% IF they are not MR stacking or have MR runes.
How much is left in 510 after we deduct 25%? Why a shocking 382,5 damage from rank 5 explunge on any target, you still think its worth over debilate? Well then i suggest you stop reading this guide at this point and go back to your malady builds.


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Lawful

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Senior Member

08-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by D2Freak View Post
Hmmm, i dare to disagree.

6 stacks of venom + expunge = 382 damage (lvl 5 expunge yes)
6 stacks of venom without expunge = 6 (max stacks) * 8 (venom lasting seconds) * dps from venom = 384

If you look at it like this:

Get 6 stacks of venom on the champ while slowing from 2-3 stacks. The venom damage applies immediatly. Then hit expunge. Now u have partial venom damage + full expunge damage. This > only venom damage ofcourse. And after u use expunge and get another hit in, the venom will stack again.

Also when u assume the dot venom will kill an enemy, and not using expunge the venom can be countered bu hitting a red pot, cleanse, getting a heal, etc. If u hit expunge, before they have a chance to react it's a kill.. else it would just be a waste of time.

Then something else. How about a AP twitch. I know i know, it sounds silly at first. But when u think about it it could be viable. All twitch does late game is wait for the right opportunity in a teamfight to pop up and release hell. Since SnP applies stacks of venom at a very high rate and u should be able to get 4-5 stacks on most champs it will do crazy damage.
Lets assume u can get 400 ap, which should be possible your expunge will hit for 910 damage to each target (+ attack damge which should be a bit lower). Thats like a close range karthus ult.

Ok the hard part is to actually get al the items cause u will get a slow start. But items like rageblade and gunblade can make up for that, tho gunblade is quite expensive. And u will have the element of surprise. No one expects an AP twitch. (srs, if i saw one it would make me lol so hard he would get a free kill).

Im gonna give it a try in practice games and see how it works.
I can't agree less to what you have said, its regardless of how you look at it, the venom timer renews every time you attack the target, at 6 stacks with each additional attack, it just resets the timer back to 0 and renews the poison for it to work 8 more seconds.

At this rate, meaning that each of your attack is stacking poison damage regardless of if you use explunge or not, because when you lets say for example shoot a target for 6 shots, they tick inbetween each added tick and deal additional damage, then you use explunge and get rid of them for a burst of damage that doesn't exceed 380.

While it works the same if you don't use explunge, the poison stacks and deals additional damage until you reach 6 stacks aswell, but you just don't use explunge to blow the target up and leave it run away while the poison ticks.

Note that maxed poison at 8 stacks can't be overhealed by potions since it deals 48 damage per second, whilst a potion only heals for 10 health a second and people don't use potions much at that point.

Also cleanse does not remove the poison stacks anymore, so if a target is on low health when you let it run off with the poison, then you'll most likely get the kill.


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Lawful

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Senior Member

08-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperness View Post
And I think the big point here to grasp is this: Slow doesn't do damage. Slow does damage only by letting you autoattack. Expunge does damage. Not only that but it has fewer ways of being thwarted. It can't be flashed out of, it can't be dodged, it can't be exhausted. Get my point? And even more, burst > dps. While that poison is slowing damaging them, they could be healing, using potions, or about to have their Soraka's or Taric's heal get off of cooldown.

Think about it some more and give expunge first a try.You'll be pleased with the results.
Point is my friend that you can't land hits to make your explunge effective if they ghost or flash out aswell, so it renders both slow and explunge more or less useless but in debilates case, it doesn't remove the slow even if they flash out, so you can follow and resume, if they ghost they only recover the lost movement speed and those are summoner spells whilst your spell is a normal short CD ability, so they won't be using it as often as you'll be using your debilate on them.

Its true that they poison stacks can be more or less neutralized by a heal or potion but thats not what were aiming for, the poison stacks are a mere little bonus to cover for not having explunge, the main reason is the DPS that provides debilate for you to deliver to a standing target.

Lets be honest, even a fully maxed out explunge won't deal as much damage as 3~5 additional shots when you have two avarice blades. Plus you get to leave the bonus poison on for additional damage instead of wasting the stacks with explunge.

Like i said, sure the burst damage looks nice and effective at times but its just eye candy for those who can't truly gasp the concept of effectiveness.


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Xplody

Junior Member

08-08-2010

alright you've talked me into it. i'll try it exactly the way you prescribe it.


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Lawful

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Senior Member

08-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xplody View Post
alright you've talked me into it. i'll try it exactly the way you prescribe it.
I don't really prescribe anyone to follow my guide.

Its as simple as - if you want to get better than good, you take my advices, if not then follow the old guides and think your somewhere in there, while your not.