Morello - This is a serious issue and you are responsible

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bahamutkaiser

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03-15-2012

Well good to see that you at least got the permanent stealth system completed, but I guess that means youll stick to that instead of adding more stealth detection to items and skills to add natural counters diversified among champs, so what about ward sweeping and the surveillance burden on supports, and will eve be an adequate dualist since she's self limited now?


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InfinityDread

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03-15-2012

Thanks for responding to this thread Morello i really appreciate the time taken out of your schedule.

Personally
I think there is an unneccessary amount of rage about over this. I can see how people can be annoyed but honestly at the end of the day i'm certain riot is doing what it believes is best for the community and the game. They have created a fantastic game that is very balanced and fun to play. Not everyone is going to be happy about everything they do in fact its impossible. Think about a nerf or buff, if you play a champ and they get nerfed you are annoyed if they get buffed you are always happy.


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aaFen

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Frankly, the new stealth is weaker, but less binary. The reason is basically that the current stealth hold the rest of the kits back and forces them to be weak - this is a necessary cost to us being able to make these character good, fun, and balanced at more elo levels.
Twitch is weak? Since when? I've seen him played multiple times on mid and high elo streams quite successfully, and mostly not due to "lol i stealth and gank u" plays but mostly because of his teamfighting power. He has a really strong steroid, a super strong ult (if you're smart about it), and a passive not to be trifled with, not to mention soft cc and the ability to execute multiple low targets as they flee.


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Baseraper

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03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wriggle View Post
Purple wards don't do anything to a stealther who themselves buy Oracles, and they're easily spotted by stealthers anyways by watching minions. Nobody bottom or middle lane is going to pick up an Oracles (maybe Taric/Ryze/Alistar) because they tend to be squishy as hell and will probably get instantly burst down in a teamfight anyways. Oracles is expensive yo, it's like 20 creeps. League removed gold-loss-on-death for a reason, and having to pick up Oracles every time you die to prevent Eve/Twitch from snowballing is pretty god**** obnoxious.

sayin' this as an eve player btw.

This is why they make GP5 items for your support... To help keep a wide field of vision. I play support ranked and I almost always have enough for pink wards and oracles.. It's not crazy to ask of a support and very doable.


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joehasaknife

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drago6817 View Post
OMFG FINALLY

I'm so happy you guys are finally owning up to this after 2 years, that sorta made me trust riot again.
Thank god your trust is soley dependent on someone telling you sumthing instead of doin' it...no one would ever believe anything otherwise...


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Wriggle

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03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimoar View Post
Twitches main issue is stealth detection. But if you get rid of Oracles then you cant counter him...
Hextech Sweeper:
+40 Ability Power
+300 Health
UNIQUE Passive: +10% Cooldown Reduction
UNIQUE Passive: Dealing spell damage grants vision of your target (including stealthed targets) for 4 seconds.
UNIQUE Active: A stealth-detecting mist grants vision in the target area for 6 seconds (1 minute cooldown).


Quote:
Originally Posted by bahamutkaiser View Post
Well good to see that you at least got the permanent stealth system completed, but I guess that means youll stick to that instead of adding more stealth detection to items and skills to add natural counters diversified among champs, so what about ward sweeping and the surveillance burden on supports, and will eve be an adequate dualist since she's self limited now?
Considering that if the permanent stealth system goes through, every champion in the game will be able to detect Evelynn/Twitch via simply being near them, err.. well, yeah.

Nidalee/Caitlyn are pretty awesome anti-stealthers with their obnoxious traps (Nidalee especially, 12 seconds), plus Lee Sin is a common pick and can reveal them with his E.


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Tsaalyo

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03-15-2012

Morello, I have a concern.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you guys are being overly perfectionist about this rework. Over the time the rework has been announced, you have discussed many things. "Stealth only works up to a range, and you get a warning light based on your threat of detection", "Eve has a gap closer and a new ult", "Twitch uses ammo", and so on. I lost track of which of these things was scrapped or not, but the point is, you keep redoing, retesting, modifying, etc. The problem with that is, stealth is a controversial mechanic, and no matter what the end product is, tens of thousands of people will hate your work.

Therefore, I wonder why you insist on being SO perfect with the rework. No matter what you do, a lot of people will be disappointed. So why not release a product that doesn't seem perfect, but just... fine? I don't know the specifics of Twitch's ammo system, for example, but I'm sure it could have 'worked'. And I assure you, whatever system you guys finally decide is "wow, PERFECT", most of us will look at it and say "meh" or "OP" or "UP".

At this point, imo, you guys should just take any of the kits you have surely developed, spit shine it, and toss it up. Does it work? Good enough. Because, as I said, "good enough" will probably be the best opinion you will get, when this is finally finished.


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iainB85

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Morello, do these changes effect short period stealth abilities like Wukong or Shaco as well?


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Wriggle

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03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Morello, do these changes effect short period stealth abilities like Wukong or Shaco as well?
No. The 'stealth rework' will split Stealth into two types: Permanent Stealth and Unseen/Hidden/Invisible (? I forget the term). Twitch and Evelynn are in the former and will be affected by the sight gem, everyone else is in the latter.


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Metaspy

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Based on what? My metric is the fact that the greatest variety of champions are viable and were used in IEM Hanover than ever before, both in total # and %, despite the growing number of champions. If releasing champions did negatively effect balance, the opposite would be true. also remember this tournament had alternate meta strategies involved, showing even greater diversity.

It is a problem that remakes have taken awhile, but "balance is a joke" is really off-base considering the contrary data. Balance is consistently improving, which is why the remake thing is the hot-button issue - balance itself is really good right now, and a handful of outliers on the low end doesn't change that (even though those are things we should fix, too).

"Balance is bad" is a red herring that is fueled by shallow or poor analysis. That's not your jobs as players, of course, but if you're going to talk design, be prepared to back it
Well it isn't like you are spouting exact statistics backed by anything at the moment either.
Don't call us onto the carpet for something you yourself are not doing.

You say handful, but it is a solid 10% of the champions who fall on the bottom.