Morello - This is a serious issue and you are responsible

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kucing

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Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IkilledUUMAD View Post
See why people say this game has one of the worst communities?
Not me, at least


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Alex3omg

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Senior Member

03-15-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Though you've already made up your mind about the evil (?) corporate entity that is Riot, that would be stupid if we did that. I make the call on this stuff in Live and Champion design, and I simply ****ed this up. We've done a lot of remakes, why would we do those at all otherwise? Dominion and TT were free as well (and we do need to support these better, another improvement to come for us).

Also, champions are primarily about engagement. They keep the game exciting and fresh, and keep people playing. Why is that bad?
Would you be willing to reduce the frequency of new champions in order to focus on cleaning up older champions?

I know you guys like to say the two are unrelated but I don't see how they're so different. You could move people to different departments and assign people to different projects. Artists redo old art or make skins for old champs instead of the 3 each new champ needs. Animators could remake old models, redo old skins, etc. I don't know the exact details because I don't work there but am I really that off-base with this?

Even if less-frequent champs wouldn't improve other features I think it'd still be for the best. As it stands we barely have a chance to get used to a new champ before the next one's out. One a month would be perfect, imo. This Lulu wait is perfect. I want her to come out, but I kind of like just..not having some brand new champ out for a little while.


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acosn

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wriggle View Post
Can new Evelynn still use Rageblade/Triforce core well?



I don't like getting picked on !!!!
Hybrid builds fundamentally lack a driving force behind them like Rab's death cap or Infinity Edge.

While in theory unless they utterly strip out the core components of Eve (IE: how her ult works, how the proposed change giving her an AP scaling damage shield on use would work, and the high scaling / low CD / low base damage Q works) could be a decent hybrid I still don't see how it'd out-strip a pure AD's lifesteal sustain or an AP build's ability to do it's job before Eve keels over.

Personally I'm kind of curious what Riot thinks of the status of stealth. Is this more a lip service maneuver to bring what they've already done up to speed with the current game, or is Riot playing around with introducing more stealth oriented characters?


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Parmethius

Senior Member

03-15-2012

This may have been said but I don't feel like reading 160 pages to find out.

My biggest concern with the stealth rework is that Eve has been quite underpowered for FAR too long. Our compensation is to be the stealth rework when it finally comes out but, obviously, that is taking a while. My question is: Is there really NOTHING you can do, even temporarily, to make Eve more effective while people are waiting? Something small such as making Hate Spike lock onto champions (why does it not do this already btw??), reducing the amount of time stealth can be delayed by taking damage, or idk giving her a movespeed boost (yes i know she moves pretty fast now). Just QoL things to keep her from being drowned in uselessness while we wait.

Edit: Also, with a new stealth system I imagine you will be able to make more stealth characters. Could we perhaps have a new stealth champion with the rework patch when it eventually comes out, assuming doing that wouldn't drastically increase the time it took for the rework to launch?


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Wriggle

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Adjudicator

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baseraper View Post
The problem wasn't eve op the problem is you are catering to terrible players who refuse to ward and or oracle setting a bad example for good game play.
Purple wards don't do anything to a stealther who themselves buy Oracles, and they're easily spotted by stealthers anyways by watching minions. Nobody bottom or middle lane is going to pick up an Oracles (maybe Taric/Ryze/Alistar) because they tend to be squishy as hell and will probably get instantly burst down in a teamfight anyways. Oracles is expensive yo, it's like 20 creeps. League removed gold-loss-on-death for a reason, and having to pick up Oracles every time you die to prevent Eve/Twitch from snowballing is pretty god**** obnoxious.

sayin' this as an eve player btw.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Parmethius View Post
Is there really NOTHING you can do, even temporarily, to make Eve more effective while people are waiting? Something small such as making Hate Spike lock onto champions (why does it not do this already btw??), reducing the amount of time stealth can be delayed by taking damage, or idk giving her a movespeed boost (yes i know she moves pretty fast now). Just QoL things to keep her from being drowned in uselessness while we wait.
She got that already through Ravage back-attack removal and a cooldown on her ultimate, though it might've been the tipping point into Obnoxiousness, really, plus at the time she was mostly used for counterjungling, and "a stealth counterjungler is toxic to the game" -- riot.

A while back, way way back, on the Test Realm her Hate Spike targetted two nearby enemies instead of one, and she had a bunch of other buffs. The extra Hate Spike target was nice, but I kind of accidentally got that one scrapped by 1v5ing entire enemy teams, whoops (though it was bugged so if there was only one Hate Spike target, it would double-strike them).


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Dirty Foot

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireXeriF View Post
I think you might build/runes/masteries him badly. Teemo is quite strong: when top solo, he is hard to gank with his incredible map awarness, he can escape ganks easily, his harras and farming ability are great as well. So what is your build?
I've tried nearly every build I could think of.

Right now I'm playing with the hybrid reds/quints just to see if I was missing anything with their release. So far, they're underwhelming.

I never stack CDR/mana/mp5 on him though. I usually go with Malady just because it's cheap and works well for his kit. The problem is that Malady focuses on 1v1, something that's getting increasingly more dangerous with all the AD champs that also have high burst. There's also the mobility creep in the game. Teemo is once again not even near the top in terms of mobility, something the "Swift Scout" should probably be pretty damn good at.

I've only seen him work slightly well as a counter pick to hard and straight AD champs, and from what I understand about game design intentions, making a champ only good as a counter pick is undesirable.


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NVDax

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaFen View Post
While I understand the frustration new players have with stealth, I don't think it's really much worse than they would have in other games that feature stealthier/"out of bounds" classes (spies in TF2, snipers in any fps, etc.), and with lots of stuff to help new players learn the game now (co-op vs. ai, dominion, and tt), I think it's a pretty poor excuse to use (and only the fault of the player). Maybe make a hero that directly counters stealth in a way (other than Lee Sin because new players won't be able to use him effectively), and once that is publicly known (just as much as stealth stomping new players is), it'll be a non-issue.

Also, I love Twitch the way he is now, and people play him at all brackets (although fairly rarely still because he's pretty situational). I think the last iteration of the stealth rework we heard about (permanently invisible like Rikimaru, but ALWAYS visible within a certain proximity to enemy units) would really cripple his current playstyle. Maybe have it delayed so that the stealth is only removed after being in range of someone for 3 seconds or something?
Please tell me this isnt the case... That will be... Just no, that's not the point of the stealth chars at all. Regardless of a rework.


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Drago6817

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
While there's no comment other than "it's done!" I can give that will make people feel good about this, let's be frank for a moment;

* Yes, the stealth rework was a majorly mismanaged project that took far too long. We own up to that.

* Eve is purposefully nerfed to being as poor as she is - her damage to how badly she was kicking new players out of the game in frustrating was beyond unacceptable. Not optimal in any means, but the right decision overall. Our plan was to not take forever, which was the failing point. This is the only thing we've ever nerfed this hard on purpose.

* Talking about progress is meaningless until I have real, concrete information for you, which I don't at this time.

* We won't disable her because some people have fun with her, despite peer pressure. You're speaking to a player behavior problem that needs to be fixed (there will always be a weakest champion - whether real (this case) or perceived.

* We understand that you're frustrated and why you are, and luckily, we've stopped mismanaging and incorrectly prioritizing this set of work - unfortunately, it's a lot of work.

That's all I can add that's useful, currently.

OMFG FINALLY

I'm so happy you guys are finally owning up to this after 2 years, that sorta made me trust riot again.


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Doctor Who Bot

Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Also, champions are primarily about engagement. They keep the game exciting and fresh, and keep people playing. Why is that bad?
Champions are OP. Have the summoners fight instead.

Edit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wriggle View Post
Purple wards don't do anything to a stealther who themselves buy Oracles, and they're easily spotted by stealthers anyways by watching minions. Nobody bottom or middle lane is going to pick up an Oracles (maybe Taric/Ryze/Alistar) because they tend to be squishy as hell and will probably get instantly burst down in a teamfight anyways. Oracles is expensive yo, it's like 20 creeps. League removed gold-loss-on-death for a reason, and having to pick up Oracles every time you die to prevent Eve/Twitch from snowballing is pretty god**** obnoxious.

sayin' this as an eve player btw.
Maybe the answer is reducing the price of items that help detect stealthies?


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TDW Snowblind

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Twitches main issue is stealth detection. But if you get rid of Oracles then you cant counter him...


hmmm Morello has a tough decision..