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Fiora builds - Anything different?

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NavyGothic

Senior Member

03-01-2012

Quote:
v4v3nd3774:
That's actually not true. There is your base AS(.672 in Fiora's case) and then there is %AS modifiers, Dagger, Recurve Bow, various masteries, the %AS you get per level, Alacrity Runes, etc. All %AS is exactly the same, they only differ in how you aquire them and their values.

All AS is exactly the same, and that's exactly why a high % increase per level devalues additional AS.

In short, 120% -> 150% is a bigger change than 150% -> 180%.


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brainlizard

Senior Member

03-01-2012

Quote:
v4v3nd3774:
Yes, it does actually. Base AS is what all % AS scales off of, even the scaling %AS you get every level(as this is exactly the same stat as %AS on dagger and recurve bow). http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_speed


I understand how it works, and you aren't right in your analysis that a higher base AS means IAS is a better buy (than other stats).

Do some calculations. Fiora is no different from any other champ with an AS steroid and AD scaling abilities: she should build AD, lifesteal and ArPen first.

P.S. I'm freaking exhausted from work, or I'd put the numbers up for you

P.P.S. BTW, the significance of the numeric trend you're seeing is that a high base AS means the champ scales better, period. AD, armor pen, lifesteal and crit ALL benefit from a higher base AS.


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v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

03-01-2012

Quote:
NavyGothic:
Okay, we're kinda arguing at cross purposes here, and looking back I agree that my statements weren't precise enough.

Allow me to rephrase; base AS *alone* is not relevant in determining the value of additional AS.

Agreed.
Quote:
NavyGothic:

The important factor is the DPS, which (ignoring other factors like crit, on-hit, armour, etc.) is AD * AS. A high base DPS increases the value of AS; a low base DPS decreases the value of AS.

In other words, AS is irrelevant in the comparison *if* the raw DPS is equal. You're correct that if the base DPS varies (for example, comparing two champions with different AS but the same AD), then the value of AS in terms of raw value does indeed change (and in this case would favour the champion with higher base AS).

Of course, this is purely in raw numbers. Given other factors (for example, a character with low DPS probably has more survivability), the relative value is likely to remain approximately equal. Raw numbers don't mean that much; what's more important is "can I kill that guy before I die?".

But see, we're not talking about a champion's entire kit. As soon as you bring up damage you're widening the scope of the conversation. Attack speed, as a whole, is simply a modifier for your AD(like you pointed out, dps), as is crit, armor pen, etc. and yes a champion with high attack speed as a whole may have different values elsewhere in their kit that causes them to actually do less dps than another champion(like significantly lower attack damage). And simply adding "40%AS" to that champion compared to another is going to cause both kits to still do the same damage but now also attack 40% faster, with whoever had more dps still doing more dps. For the record, I'm still not sure why you'd want to compare to another champion when deciding if AS is good. If anything there should be a comparison made between two Fioras, each built with different a emphasis.

But this isn't what we're talking about. I'm talking about %AS being a multiplier for a champion's base AS, not AS as a whole being a multiplier for dps. It's a simple fact that you're getting more additional AS out of the same item when purchased on someone with a high base AS, making it a good choice. This is why AD carries and the like have high base AS. Getting additional AS on a champion with low base AS gets you much less of a return, making this a poor choice.


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v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

03-01-2012

Quote:
NavyGothic:
All AS is exactly the same, and that's exactly why a high % increase per level devalues additional AS.

In short, 120% -> 150% is a bigger change than 150% -> 180%.


High %AS/lvl only devalues purchased(or for that matter runed/masteried) AS if you're in danger of hitting the AS cap of 2.5. No champion with a standard build on a regular basis hits cap, thereby wasting %AS itemization and making high %AS/lvl detrimental.

Even one of the fastest autoattackers in the game, Kennen, as AD with an AS heavy 6item build(zerkers, IE, LW, PD, PD, defensive item) at lvl 18 doesn't reach AS cap. That's 2.049AS (http://leaguecraft.com/builder/Kennen/?items=83,89,89,60,33,97&masteries=1300400410013030101304001000000000000000000000000&level=18). You'd have to use some silly trollish build like four PDs or have a substantial AS steroid with a very AS heavy build to AS cap. AS would still benifet the later while the steroid is not in use.

Edit: By the way, .672 with 120%AS is 1.4784. .672 with 150%AS is 1.68, a 0.2016 difference. .672 with 180%AS is 1.8816, also a 0.2016 difference. So no, you're gaining the same number of attacks per second with each leap of 30%(0.2016).


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v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

03-01-2012

Quote:
brainlizard:
I understand how it works, and you aren't right in your analysis that a higher base AS means IAS is a better buy (than other stats).


I never said a higher base AS means %AS is a better buy than other stats. I said she has high base AS meaning she scales quite well with %AS and that considering that, and the fact that she's still a melee autoattacker at heart, %AS items are strong on her and a worthwhile purchase. I never said that AS should either be rushed, let alone the sole focus of her build, while her other needs are disregarded.

I'm copy/pasting my previous reply to Prometheius from page 5 because it now applies to you:

Quote:
Prometheius:
Purposefully RUSHING attack speed on a champion with a ****-ton of it already is stupid beyond belief when other items give better damage increase.

You didn't read my post you quoted, nor have you read the any of my other posts in this thread, apperently. Bolded what I've said that relates to AS and my opinion of it on her, specifically where it falls in my initial thoughts on her build.

Quote:
v4v3nd3774]My thoughts on her so far:

- even with three gapclosers she's still prone to kiting due to no cc and being a melee autoattacker at heart.

- due to this I feel phage is pretty core on her, whether this goes to fm or entropy is still preference imo(at this point).

- lifesteal is core due to her R making you invulnerable and applying onhit(lifesteal), this causes a huge swing in hp if you and an opponent are both 50%~hp when you R.

- due to lifesteal being core, having ad ratios and being an autoattacker at core sanguine is pretty core.

- cdr is amazing on her, due to her reliance on R. I'm using cdr glyphs, 4% from masteries and liking brutalizer. not sure about Ionian, I really want mercs and maybe even zerkers.

- .672 base AS, AS scales amazingly on her. She's at least in the top 15 if not top 10 in base AS of all champs. Because of this things like PD could also do amazingly well on her, but I think this takes a back seat to her other needs.

- currently I like mercs phage bruta sanguine, not sure after that. either fm/entropy or situational defenses or lw or upgrade to yomuus or pd(or maybe just zeal into trinity). I'm leaning toward boots1+prospector>
:



Quote:
v4v3nd3774:
Fiora's base AS(.672) is one of the highest in the game, there's nothing wrong with building AS even though she has a 3second AS steroid. It's pretty hard to cap on AS even with that ridiculous E. Purposefully avoiding AS on someone that scales so well with it is like purposefully avoiding flat AD on Riven because you feel she already does enough damage.


[QUOTE=v4v3nd3774]Well, what I meant by it's pretty hard to is that you have to go out of your way to build multiple AS items, so one or even two AS items(if you happen to be building them) isn't really an issue. That being said, I think she still has other needs that need more attention than taking advantage of her high base AS.

But congratulations on trying to take one sentence out of context.


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Cauldrath

Senior Member

03-01-2012

Bottom line: when she has Burst of Speed active (120% AS bonus), an item that gives her 60% AS bonus will increase her damage output by ~4/5 of the amount it would affect someone with no other % AS bonus previously, regardless of what their base AS is. (280% damage / 220% damage) / (160% damage / 100% damage).

Is attack speed still a good buy when you have a lot of AD? Of course. The steroid just makes it a little less valuable, while making AD much more valuable.

There's a lot of things that multiply together to increase effectiveness. For example, your healing per second (ignoring armor) is life steal * (1 + (crit chance * (crit multiplier - 1))) * AD * base AS * bonus AS.

As a rule when increasing things multiplied together, the more you have of something, the less valuable it is relative to the other options that are not as high per unit cost.


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brainlizard

Senior Member

03-01-2012

Quote:
v4v3nd3774:
I'm copy/pasting my previous reply to Prometheius from page 5 because it now applies to you:


That's pretty darn rude, man. I'm done trying to explain this. Be wrong. I don't care.


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Melvear

Senior Member

03-01-2012

Quote:
brainlizard:
That's pretty darn rude, man. I'm done trying to explain this. Be wrong. I don't care.


It's not rude, you'd see that if you read what he copy pasted. And he's not wrong, you just didn't read what he said right.


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Pantazi

Senior Member

03-01-2012

Quote:
ricklessabandon:
i was referring to the recommended items for dominion specifically.
in any case, her dominion items were set by my recommendation, so i was curious to know if people were having success picking from that set.

basically, i wanted to know how close to the mark i was.


I am have great success with those items. I have found that an entropy is an almost must, so I can use it for her ult


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Ravedeath

Member

03-01-2012

I find I always get flak for wanting to build almost pure ad/lifesteal. Sure, if you build tanky you wont die, and you'll get a lot of assists, but there's really no way easy to carry a game starting without a BF Sword on first buy; imo you should be doing this (carrying), in solo queue. Considering her steroids, I think lifesteal is probably her most important stat to buy, e.g. Sanguine, Prospectors Blade, and thats it. after those, I'll need more damage. A disgusting amount.

I haven't tried Entropy yet, I'm working my way to it.

I never find myself wanting to buy AS either, there's a lot of theorycrafting in here, but when you get into the match, seriously? The only attack speed item you should be buying is WE for thornmail.