I lost 400 elo last night, and I cried myself to sleep

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KrYoS

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-28-2012

I've noticed a lot of changes since the Ziggs patch. I was 1855 ELO and have fallen to 1557 or something like that, despite typically playing very well and often even have monster games. The sad thing is, even when I queue with friends who are 2k+ elo, I still see bad players. I was in one recently where there was a 2120 and a 2050 ELO player.. I was around 1550. I ended up going like 20-4-9 and the 2120 went like 10-12-x on Ashe (not too bad) for that game, but the other one played Brand and was like 1-8-x and just sucked. How some of these players got to 2k ELO I'll never know. Yet I endlessly get stuck with that one bad player on my team who just couldn't be much worse. Had a 1/13 Talon yesterday, for instance... How does someone go 1/13 on Talon? He was just suiciding with his E.. but still, so bad. Dom MM is pretty much broken is all I can figure.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KSHarrison

Senior Member

02-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by v4v3nd3774 View Post
Well, regarding the cdr needed to hit 4 times it's actually only roughly 25%. 2.0 - 25% = 1.5sec cd Q. 1.5 x 3 = 4.5. E stays on for 5 seconds. It's x 3 because you're going to shoot one just as E lands and just as E is finishing, meaning you don't need to count the cd of the last one. I say 27%~ because hitting 4 on 25% is pretty difficult to do, especially consistantly. It only leaves .5 seconds for human error and latency on all four of your Qs. I've found 28% to be more than comfortable and 29%(ionian+bruta+4%mastery) is just fine. Just keep in mind that Gs technically doesn't outright increase your dps by 15% unless you hit the breakpoint allowing you to cast a 4th Q on a lock or you're spamming blind Qs.

I will say I've never really considered the fact that pre-9 he's still gaining damage from lvling Q and that after is when he'll need to actually build it to keep increasing the numbers. That said, I still like having damage early. I used to use boots+ tear into bruta then finish manamune but still felt like Tear held back my damage a bit for the first few lvls. I'm not sure Bruta's flat pen could ever be considered useless. Flat pen is pretty hard to come by, other than runes, and depending on what you're facing you could have players with upwards of 70+ armor early game. Later on when you have LW Bruta still helps you because it brings the values lower for %pen to work off of and the lower values are always worth more. I have on occasion sold Bruta when being fed, farmed and itemcapped rather than upgrading to Yomuus but that's only because I value 60+ AD and other effects higher than the crit and on use 1350~ gold spent on upgrading to Yomuus would give me.

I think the only way I'd really prefer to use gs is if I ran a different set of boots, because like you said with Ionian boots it's really bruta or gs and having one really reduces the need for the other. Have you tried mercs+bruta+gs? You're also running manamune in there(which, agreed, is a very efficient item) so this would set you back quite a bit. I'm trying mp5 runes atm to avoid manamune allowing a quicker build, getting to his big needs more quickly, and allowing you to counterbuild sooner.

I feel like I want to try gs just because I'm building armor every game anyway, but just don't know how to make it work well.
Well, if you want to try GS, all I can say is use my build, since i don't know any other way to do it. I would say one thing, though:

Flat apen is applied after the %Apen. So brut actually does not synergize well with LW. Your flat apen is always reduced by an amount equal to the % apen you have. So, with LW and masteries, you have 46% apen and the 15 flat apen from brut is actually about 8 armor pen only. You lose 7 Apen off your brut when you buy LW. In killing an opponent from full health to no health, this 8 apen is probably going to amount to something like a free 100-200 hp off an enemy's healthbar when you fight them, depending on the enemy's defensive statistics (100hp being 2000 hp with like 170 armor, and 200 hp being 2000 hp with base armor). So that might be something good to know when designing your build.

Anyways, my experience with my build is that in one full Q combo I bring any non tank down to half or less HP. So with two combos they are dead, which is great for poke wars. Also, I duel like a tryhard with this build. But good luck finding a GS build you can use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionButlerGO View Post
I was afraid someone would say something like that.

The last think I want to do is play grossly broken champs, using poor tactics, to crawl up to a respectable elo, but it seems like there is no other choice in blind pick. Not because the other team is picking broken champs, too, but because everyone there seems to hate the idea of working as a team or, really, winning.

Like I said, I'm not a great player. I will never claim to be a great player. Could I do better in my games? Of course I could. Is it genuinely impossible to get teammates in blind pick who A) have already played Dominion and B) won't disappear when we start teamfights, though?

Like I asked before, does it get at all better when you hit level 30 or should I just swap to draft mode right now? Since I'm not yet 30, I'm hesitant to do draft, but if it is the only way to get a consistent level of play, I'm willing to try.
Hey man, I understand why you wouldn't want to use OP champs. I always felt the same way when I played, as if I were taking the easy way out or being a sheep playing FOTM champs. In hindsight, I regret my decision for two reasons

1. The biggest reason: The game only gets more competitive as you get higher in levels/elo. Sure, an OP champion lets you roflstomp at lower levels, which is not really fun because you are just winning with an OP champion. At higher levels, though, it becomes almost necessary to compete because everyone has earned enough IP to buy themselves strong champions, and they are all using them.

When you are laning or playing against other high tier champions, your low tier champion won't match up well. You may find yourself at a higher skill level than your allies and opponents in a match, but still breaking even because they are playing some ridiculously strong champ. This is really frustrating because there is nothing worse than playing with players less skilled than you. Everyone says that if you are the best player on the team, you need to carry your team. Well, it's hard to carry your team when you are using prebuff Ashe, for example, laning against prenerf Vayne. (Not sure who the FOTM champs are now, since I haven't played in a while). Vayne is going to melt your team later in the game, and you won't be doing that.

The short of it is that you should use the best champs you can because everyone else will be doing the same thing, so that you can reach your true elo based on skill and not being limited because your champions are all trash. Then, you get matches that are more evenly skilled which is a lot more rewarding environment to play in, and it is still challenging, but in the right ways. The gap between champion viability is real and becomes more and more pronounced as you progress.

2. I reached level 30 and realized I had spent most of my IP on subpar champions. I have very few champs that are considered high tier. Looking at Elementz's tier list makes me sad inside. So I have no IP, lots of no good champs, and decent runes. I'd rather be where I am with no IP, several really strong champs, and decent runes.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

02-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSHarrison View Post
Well, if you want to try GS, all I can say is use my build, since i don't know any other way to do it. I would say one thing, though:

Flat apen is applied after the %Apen. So brut actually does not synergize well with LW. Your flat apen is always reduced by an amount equal to the % apen you have. So, with LW and masteries, you have 46% apen and the 15 flat apen from brut is actually about 8 armor pen only. You lose 7 Apen off your brut when you buy LW. In killing an opponent from full health to no health, this 8 apen is probably going to amount to something like a free 100-200 hp off an enemy's healthbar when you fight them, depending on the enemy's defensive statistics (100hp being 2000 hp with like 170 armor, and 200 hp being 2000 hp with base armor). So that might be something good to know when designing your build.

Anyways, my experience with my build is that in one full Q combo I bring any non tank down to half or less HP. So with two combos they are dead, which is great for poke wars. Also, I duel like a tryhard with this build. But good luck finding a GS build you can use.
I think I might try some games with your build and some with mercs+gs, we'll see. I think you might be confusing %armor reduction and %armor pen though :S Per the wiki the order they're applied is %armor reduction(Urgot's E), flat armor reduction(like Eve's E), flat armor pen(our runes, Bruta) and then %armor pen(LW, CSaura, mastery). That means 100armor goes to 54 first(from 31pen runes+15 bruta) then 54 would be reduced by whatever %pen you had. If you had 52.48% it would drop to 25.66 armor. That same calculation with out bruta would leave the target with 32.79 armor. That's a difference of around 7.23(oddly enough the same number you came to, roughly, but I don't know what you're doing! lol) or about a 5% damage increase.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KSHarrison

Senior Member

02-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by v4v3nd3774 View Post
I think I might try some games with your build and some with mercs+gs, we'll see. I think you might be confusing %armor reduction and %armor pen though :S Per the wiki the order they're applied is %armor reduction(Urgot's E), flat armor reduction(like Eve's E), flat armor pen(our runes, Bruta) and then %armor pen(LW, CSaura, mastery). That means 100armor goes to 54 first(from 31pen runes+15 bruta) then 54 would be reduced by whatever %pen you had. If you had 52.48% it would drop to 25.66 armor. That same calculation with out bruta would leave the target with 32.79 armor. That's a difference of around 7.23(oddly enough the same number you came to, roughly, but I don't know what you're doing! lol) or about a 5% damage increase.
oops you're right! But yeah as you saw the calculation comes out the same. It's because the flat apen reduces the amount for the %apen to reduce. An easy scenario is to assume 50 flat apen, 40% apen, and enemy has 100 armor. The 50 flat apen brings the armor down to 50, then 40% from that is 30 armor. Take the same scenario without the flat apen, and 40% from 100 is 60 armor. The difference between the two cases is 30 armor. In other words, the 50 apen only counted for 30 apen, which is a 40% reduction, which is equal to the %apen.

Also, %apen stacks multiplicatively, so you end up with 40% apen from LW, leaving opponent with 60% armor, and then 10% reduction from that with your mastery, which leaves 54% armor, or a total of 46% armor pen, which is the highest %apen you can end up with if I'm not mistaken.

But the nice thing with Urgot is his reduction which is retarded good. At rank 1 it is 10% reduction, leaving opponent with 90% armor. The total calculation for all %pen and flat pen becomes 0.9*0.54-0.54*(flat apen). From the % reduction+%apen alone, you bypass 51.4% of opponent's armor. At rank 5, the % reduction is 20%, and the equation becomes 0.8*0.54-0.54*(flat apen), which is 56.8% armor clearance. That's nearly 60% of the opponents armor just wasted. With 31 armor pen from runes/masteries, you reduce a further 16.74, and with your brut another 8.1. That's a ton of armor pen.

Without brut, you deal true damage to anyone at 50 armor and below, and with brut you deal true damage to anyone 58 armor and below. If opponent has 100 armor, without brut it becomes 26 armor, and with brut it becomes 18 armor. At opponent = 130 armor, without brut it is 39 armor and with brut 31 armor.

If you care haha. I've done a lot of thinking about this stuff!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

02-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSHarrison View Post
Also, %apen stacks multiplicatively, so you end up with 40% apen from LW, leaving opponent with 60% armor, and then 10% reduction from that with your mastery, which leaves 54% armor, or a total of 46% armor pen, which is the highest %apen you can end up with if I'm not mistaken.
You're forgetting the 12% CS aura That's where I got 52.48% total %pen, instead of 46% total %pen(which is what the number is on SR). You also need to keep the %reduction seperate from the %pen, using %reduction before flatpen and %pen after flatpen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSHarrison View Post
But the nice thing with Urgot is his reduction which is retarded good. At rank 1 it is 10% reduction, leaving opponent with 90% armor. The total calculation for all %pen and flat pen becomes 0.9*0.54-0.54*(flat apen). From the % reduction+%apen alone, you bypass 51.4% of opponent's armor. At rank 5, the % reduction is 20%, and the equation becomes 0.8*0.54-0.54*(flat apen), which is 56.8% armor clearance. That's nearly 60% of the opponents armor just wasted. With 31 armor pen from runes/masteries, you reduce a further 16.74, and with your brut another 8.1. That's a ton of armor pen.

Without brut, you deal true damage to anyone at 50 armor and below, and with brut you deal true damage to anyone 58 armor and below. If opponent has 100 armor, without brut it becomes 26 armor, and with brut it becomes 18 armor. At opponent = 130 armor, without brut it is 39 armor and with brut 31 armor.

If you care haha. I've done a lot of thinking about this stuff!
Using the 52.48% figure, 100armor would be: 100 - 20%reduction = 80. 80 - 46flat pen = 34. 34 - 52.48%pen = 16.1568 armor left with Bruta and 31pen runes or 13.90~%reduction. 130armor - 20%reduction = 104. 104 - 46flat pen = 58. 58 - 52.48%pen = 27.5616 armor left with Bruta and 31pen runes or 21.60~%reduction.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ActionButlerGO

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSHarrison View Post
Hey man, I understand why you wouldn't want to use OP champs. I always felt the same way when I played, as if I were taking the easy way out or being a sheep playing FOTM champs. In hindsight, I regret my decision for two reasons...
Thanks for the input KSHarrison. What you say makes a lot of sense, too. I hate to have to resort to it, but, like you said, if I don't pick them, someone else probably will.

We'll see how this goes.


And best of luck to you, as well. I hope your losing streak will soon be at an end.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KSHarrison

Senior Member

02-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by v4v3nd3774 View Post
You're forgetting the 12% CS aura That's where I got 52.48% total %pen, instead of 46% total %pen(which is what the number is on SR). You also need to keep the %reduction seperate from the %pen, using %reduction before flatpen and %pen after flatpen.

Using the 52.48% figure, 100armor would be: 100 - 20%reduction = 80. 80 - 46flat pen = 34. 34 - 52.48%pen = 16.1568 armor left with Bruta and 31pen runes or 13.90~%reduction. 130armor - 20%reduction = 104. 104 - 46flat pen = 58. 58 - 52.48%pen = 27.5616 armor left with Bruta and 31pen runes or 21.60~%reduction.
haha touche


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KSHarrison

Senior Member

02-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionButlerGO View Post
Thanks for the input KSHarrison. What you say makes a lot of sense, too. I hate to have to resort to it, but, like you said, if I don't pick them, someone else probably will.

We'll see how this goes.


And best of luck to you, as well. I hope your losing streak will soon be at an end.
You too, man. But I actually uninstalled last night. So, my streak no longer matters. I'm peacing from this game again, maybe for good this time. I'll have to see where I stand once this semester is over.