@riot: Throwing Omen away for Riven?

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jaunty22

Senior Member

02-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celebi View Post
Exactly, I am 'for' higher standards, and you've read me pretty well, but it is the fact that those very standards deny a champion with such an amazing design and potential for a unique ability kit that makes me repulse those standards, because to me, if these standards are the reason why Omen is shelved, (which they are as from what I've read in this whole thread, and yes, I've read every, single, post in this thread) then I'd rather want Riot to discard them... Because they're clearly not worth it.

My whole point is that, even without knowing how Omen is played, the creativity behind his design is AMAZING, and the potential behind that design could make for a very unique kit. So Riot's high standards naturally say "Shelf Omen because he doesn't meet our requirements", then that only means those standards and expectations are gonna ruin future potential champions, see where I'm going? I'd discard those rewarding high standards if it mean't that designs like Omen would be rejected, because to me, that is 100% waste of pure brilliance and imagination...

Congratulations to Zileas and FeralPony for making Omen, I'm truly disappointed that you guys are shelving him, but thanks to you I can now preserve this amazing rendition of Omen forever as my wallpaper, but again, I'm VERY disappointed in you guys...
Is there something that you're basing these statements on besides his artwork though? Yeah, he's an awesome looking zergling/displacer beast/porcupine thing, but if the designers themselves weren't satisfied with the way his kit, appearance and character all meshed together and played/read and couldn't satisfactorily make it work together after months... why exactly would you disagree with them? There's really no reason to think they're just hucking awesome ideas in the trash all willy nilly..

If the bear and graves made it through to the league but omen didn't make the cut, i'm willing to believe that he wouldn't have been all that exciting to play.


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Vulking

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Senior Member

02-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaunty22 View Post
Is there something that you're basing these statements on besides his artwork though? Yeah, he's an awesome looking zergling/displacer beast/porcupine thing, but if the designers themselves weren't satisfied with the way his kit, appearance and character all meshed together and played/read and couldn't satisfactorily make it work together after months... why exactly would you disagree with them?

If the bear and graves made it through to the league and omen didn't make the cut, i'm willing to believe that he wouldn't have been all that exciting.
I think the problem is that, reading every single red post, all of them (excluding the noodles ones) make it seam that they tried to force Omen to be a ranged DPS, forcing his quills to be is main weapon, while dismissing any other option that would have fit him better.

Xyph post also seam to force down your throat that the issue was the look, even when the red posts indicate that the problem was the kit.


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jaunty22

Senior Member

02-26-2012

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Originally Posted by Vulking View Post
I think the problem is that, reading every single red post, all of them (excluding the noodles ones) make it seam that they tried to force Omen to be a ranged DPS, forcing his quills to be is main weapon, while dismissing any other option that would have fit him better.

Xyph post also seam to force down your throat that the issue was the look, even when the red posts indicate that the problem was the kit.
he's got spines, and a spiky tail, and the crazy eyes, and the chesire grin and the hypno spiral designs. Is he going to shoot you with the spines, or teleport around clobbering you with his tail or explode your brain? and can you even see him?! and then he's not actually a void monster, just some other kind of monster. they were all stating pretty explicitly that his design didn't mesh well with itself.

there's no way to know exactly what he's going to be doing just coming across him for the first time and he had no defining personality or notable traits, which is a big thing on champions especially as the number goes up. It's intuitively obvious what most heroes do just by looking at them... even if you've never played against them before you can be reasonably prepared for what they're going to do to you.

Ziggs has a bunch of bombs, he's probably going to throw bombs at you. Graves has a big shotgun, he's probably going to shoot you with it a bunch and it's gonna hurt if you're up close. Fizz is some little fish guy /w trident, he's probably all slippery and stabs you with his trident... fox chick with glowing orb probably going to do cool stuff with glowing orbs, etc etc. They like big shiny visual indicators so people can easily tell what's going on and who does what. why's vayne got this giant crossbow on her back but she's only beating me up with this small one? oh snap she just pulled it out, ****s about to get real.


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Vulking

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Senior Member

02-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaunty22 View Post
he's got spines, and a spiky tail, and the crazy eyes, and the chesire grin and the hypno spiral designs. Is he going to shoot you with the spines, or teleport around clobbering you with his tail or explode your brain? and can you even see him?! also he's not actually a void monster, just some other kind of monster.

they were all stating pretty explicitly that his design didn't mesh well with itself.
Spines, Spiky Tail, and crazy and sly face mesh well, haven't you ever take a look at Cho? or Spawn's Violator? he don't look ranged at all if you ask me, his spikes look like a melee offensive or defensive tool, I imagine a tail swipe in front of him, a leap attack in spike ball form with a small AoE on impact (maybe a slow), a spike defense self buff/shield, an on hit Bite. (this is something made up in like 2 minutes of self brainstorm so don't get picky about it)

The thing is the design is not the problematic aspect of him, that's the beauty of non humanoid monsters, they can look like basically anything and make it work as long as there is sense in they shape and logic in their kit, is not like he is a formless eldritch abomination or anything like that.


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Bonsant

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Senior Member

02-27-2012

the post there is really wrong.

They didn't make Riven from scratch after Omen! That is downright flawed. You simply can't develop her within a week. She was just bumped up in development so they had to rush her last few features.


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Hoty2001

Member

02-27-2012

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Originally Posted by PanderxD View Post
heres how i imagine his kit as MELEE
Passive - Omen gains 2% AD per champion kill
Q) Pounce - Omen pounces to target location and does damage before pouncing and after pounce (thinking of a kassadin/nidalee combo where the void would aid in the pounce)
W) Needle Shot - Omen shoots needle projectiles to damage foes has an ammo system once used goes on cooldown (think irelia ultimate but the attacks are targeted to ensure damage is delt)
E) Passive - Omens attacks apply Damage over time and slow (think fizz and GP)
R) Omen shoots all the needles from his back to pin down opponents in an area either stun or slow depending on health. Less health would mean stun more mean slow this way he can be a thorn in their side.

why this kit? allows him to stay on target to do damage add utility, and gives for a fun kit to play, this kit may not look like much but if you were to disregard him you would surely regret it.
figured id be apart of the solution and not stand around and just say hey theres a problem here!
Passive: Bloodthirsty "Omen gains 2% AD for each enemy champ within range"

Q: Spinal Burst: "Pounces to target location erupting quills on impact" but give it a healthy CD to make it an initiation spell, not something you can spam to chase.

W: Spine Growth/Spinal Assault "Omen's spines grow increasing armor by X and return Y damage while charges remain, spines regrow over time; can activate to break off spines inside foes with melee attacks, dealing additional damage, each basic attack removes a charge"

E: Spinal Tap: Channeled spell, regens mana and lost quills (can't excede max)

R: Spinal Trap: "Omen fires a heavy burst of spines at a single champion, pinning them to the ground and dealing damage" Base duration/damage off distance from omen, closer target, longer duration.


my take on decent a primer, making him melee oriented semi-tankie dps


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Hoty2001

Member

02-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post

Why isn't there 10,000 Omens? He kind of just looks like a hydralisk equivalent in the zerg army. That's great for a zerg unit and a monster or a miniboss, but why is this character a unique champion?


EDIT: Ninja'ed by Zileas. XD
why isnt there 10,000,000 maokais? he's a f******g tree.


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Mizuen

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Senior Member

02-27-2012

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
:<

Fine. Looking like a creature that stems from the phylum Athropod and being of either subphylum Hexapod or Chelicerata. XD
Just an idea, but wouldn't it be viable to give him an identity by saying that he is the product of runeterran science, but one day he went berserk and is now on the quest of supreme evolution (essentially becoming the strongest beast), or something along those lines. This would give him an identity and an explanation as to why he looks so strange and demented


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EddyEduardo

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Senior Member

02-27-2012

Doubt anyone will read this, but isn't Skarner one of many, just like you think Omen will be?

The only reason he's unique is because his story says so......can't the same thing be done for Omen?

As for the whole ranged/melee debate: you can't do both? Kayle has a sword, and is melee, but lo and behold, she can go ranged.

61 pages would suggest that this will be a pretty popular character. Sejuani fits your conditions but she's not really very popular. I guarantee that people will see Omen and be like, "what a badass", and he'd be pretty **** popular.


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Hummin

Senior Member

02-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Bio-organic spines don't convey melee *or* ranged very well. In fact, given the number of responses to this thread, there's a solid set of people envisioning a ranged character and a solid set of people who think he's strictly melee.

That's the problem - He doesn't look like he belongs to any class. It goes back to making visuals intuitive - Regardless of wanting to make him melee/ranged/stealth/assassin/fighter, his art would still need to change to solve that problem - Visually, he'd actually be a lot stronger of a character without spines altogether.

It's true that some characters violate this principle - but it's far more dominant on dark/monstrous champions. Monsterous champions typically have to work the extra mile to avoid appearing like a miniboss of sorts - just due to the nature of 'Monsters are things to be killed.'

Any one of the three faults that I've listed could potentially derail a character - but Omen was in a special case of having all three of them at once and each solution to one part of the trio pulls apart from the other two - For example, the spines thing I've listed above, removing it makes him a stronger intuitive concept from a gameplay perspective - and it makes him look utterly generic.

Take Kog'maw for instance: Kog'maw's visual analogue is a puppy which gave him personality. He's also a cannon - which solves #1 neatly. Being slightly weak at looking unique is fine - because you know, being a puppy cannon compensates for that.

I dislike this general line of argument - It's an inconsistency argument, but it tries to justify negatives by saying other negatives exist and are fine. Like 'I know a guy who stole stuff and got away with it, so I should be fine with stealing stuff.'

Don't get me wrong, It's a valid argument but we're steadily working on trying to figure out better standards.

Looking like there could be a million of you doesn't mean that you've successfully implied that he's a swarm oriented character - You bring up the example of broodmother - but there's the visual analogue - Insects are part of swarms, and are clearly recognizable as swarm hive - Looking like an insect is what makes you think swarm - not looking like a faceless creature.

Your other point about making a splitter champion is slightly more difficult to pull off. But looking like a minion of a demon army doesn't mean you've successfully made something that looks like he's a splitter character. You don't imply splitting by implying 'I look like a minion.' You imply splitting by establishing why/how something splits. For example, there's The Ooze and The Pandaren Brewmaster who do this decently - you split into the classic elements and you reform back into a more whole character.

Lastly, Omen's major problem is that he's a combination of niche tropes. Needles plus Bio-Organic Alien plus Chesire Cat goes from niche onto niche onto niche. You get kind of like the 'B' movie effect with this - Completely loved cult classics that are awesome - but filled with flaws that no one really wants to address or fix because they don't matter to them.
heres some ideas I thought of while playing with my daughter. I enjoy the concept of a spiny monster with a creepy smile. Almost taunts. Some ideas is he can form a reflective sheild with his spines, if the sheild is broken it falls to the ground in little spines that slow enemy champs who walk on it, the longer the spines spend regeneration the longer the slow patch stacking up to a certain amount. the down side to losing spines lowers his defence slightly until they grow back. using his feet he could lash them out in quick slashes to an enemy with minor bleeding damage. Or maybe his spines beak in a fight and fall to the ground leaving spine shards for champions to be damaged from. maybe he can dig under the ground and tunnel some place else. Or maybe he can launch the spines off his back impaling a champion to its location for a few seconds. Maybe he shakes and the spines heal enemies. so many ideas I dunno what to do D: