@riot: Throwing Omen away for Riven?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Celebi

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

02-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormblind View Post
Couldn't it theoretically work to have him follow the design his physical appearance lends itself towards: Melee Assassin/AD carry (in the vein of yi). Something fast, leap-y, with various bites, claws, ect as part of his animation set (Either abilities / auto's.)

Those spines? They would work awesomely for an ult or lets say a singular ranged poke ability. A great cap on the concept, but not a core part of his personality.

Again, we have no idea what his actual build was, but his LOOK, his animation / art is phenomenal; and I would also support his release.

If i remember right, there was also concern skarner / volibear wouldn't sell well / be popular, but i see them pretty much constantly. I think it's just the fear that monsterous champ's dont sell due to lacking personality right?
Lack of personality? Sejuani has one of the most bland backgrounds ever, I saw Fiona's lore coming, I swear I did. Amumu's lore is just retarded... A crying mummy that needs parents. Seriously, "lore" isn't something we should expect of Riot anymore, the Journal of Justice is gone, league Judgements are gone, they can justify those removals as much as they want, to me its all pointless reasons, lots of people loved them and a LOT of people looked forward to league judgements....

I don't play characters only because of their design, I want to "know" about them. Otherwise it'd be like playing an invisible character with no personality, no voice-overs in-game (because of his lack of background) and such.... Seriously, whoever manages to play this game without ever having read any lore, to me is a fake gamer who only plays the game for the sake of playing it... When League of Legends is more than a game to me, it's a story...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dethavin

Senior Member

02-26-2012

Hmmm.... Something I havnt seen brought up yet is why not make him a minion type creature for another void character like Malz? I think that would solve a huge number of issues you guys have laid out in this post. Keep him visually the same and still add a range spike damage from him. Perhaps make the new champ a rival of Malz that has come from the void ah la renek/nasus?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Celebi

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

02-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Bio-organic spines don't convey melee *or* ranged very well. In fact, given the number of responses to this thread, there's a solid set of people envisioning a ranged character and a solid set of people who think he's strictly melee.

That's the problem - He doesn't look like he belongs to any class. It goes back to making visuals intuitive - Regardless of wanting to make him melee/ranged/stealth/assassin/fighter, his art would still need to change to solve that problem - Visually, he'd actually be a lot stronger of a character without spines altogether.
When you said it needed to change, I lost all hope in Omen, to me he looks very good and unique as an addition to the league, being always the same isn't what appeals to most of us... Lots of us in fact, look for uniqueness.

Also, the whole "He looks both ranged AND melee" argument isn't really a problem, we don't mind him being ranged, you guys just haven't revealed any ideas on his kit for us to adapt, his figure could be used to convey the spindly look he has, a movement speed steroid would make him look fierce, moving fast, crawling, with 4 legs, tell me that's not scary and typical of an alien?

His grin, I really don't see him opening his mouth, does the Cheshire cat close his mouth? No, he constantly shows his teeth, like it was his main feature, an all-knowing cat that laughs at your lack of knowledge about upcoming events. Why is Kayle a ranged and a melee? Same problem happened there, but she's still fine as a champion. Make him have a toggle or an active that switches from melee, to ranged.

When I say this, I mean keep the whole spiny look, make his melee attacks retract his tails in front of him to stab his foe with numerous spines, and when he's ranged, he'll swing his tail and throw the spines just like Cho'Gath's Vorpal Spikes animation. And it would work just like Kayle's Righteous Fury. She's both ranged and melee, I don't understand why this couldn't work here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
It's true that some characters violate this principle - but it's far more dominant on dark/monstrous champions. Monsterous champions typically have to work the extra mile to avoid appearing like a miniboss of sorts - just due to the nature of 'Monsters are things to be killed.'

Any one of the three faults that I've listed could potentially derail a character - but Omen was in a special case of having all three of them at once and each solution to one part of the trio pulls apart from the other two - For example, the spines thing I've listed above, removing it makes him a stronger intuitive concept from a gameplay perspective - and it makes him look utterly generic.
That I agree with, keep the spines, we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the spines and the amazingly creative way they were positioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Lastly, Omen's major problem is that he's a combination of niche tropes. Needles plus Bio-Organic Alien plus Chesire Cat goes from niche onto niche onto niche. You get kind of like the 'B' movie effect with this - Completely loved cult classics that are awesome - but filled with flaws that no one really wants to address or fix because they don't matter to them.
But that's all, you guys made it seem like he had WAY too many themes added together. He just has a personality (and mentality) that resembles the Cheshire cat's, he's ominous, knows it all, and grins at the fact that you don't know what's coming to you, mix that with a spiny demon that looks like he's thirsty for blood, and you got a self-fulfilling monster that issues bad omens on his foes himself. As in he doesn't just knows what happens and stands-by, he's the one that makes it happen, but then that just becomes an excuse for him to kill as in "I prophesied I was going to kill you, since it's a prophecy I have to do it now, blame the future *jabs his foe to death with spiny tail* ".


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Celebi

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

02-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliai View Post
Lots of interesting subject matter in this thread. A few things I'm particularly interested in:

-Visual representation as an accurate means to convey a role. This is pretty interesting, and I think LoL's champions are generally represented pretty well. A new player may not know exactly who Tryndamere is or what he does, but his visual representation - his bulk, the giant sword - convey a pretty clear message of "don't get too close to this guy". Of course, there are also champions who seem to intentionally subvert expectations - "why is this pigtailed little girl towerdiving me and hitting me for five billion damage?" Of course, this intuitive sort of consistency between character role and character visual representation seems to have a hell of a lot of leniency when it comes to female characters - I'm sure everyone remembers the forum uproar over our resident arctic bikini tank. That kind of leads me to the next thing I'm interested in...

-Global appeal. I assume the tendency for LoL's women to have their DDs spilling out from their plate bikinis has something to do with this. I'm curious as to what (beyond milking daddy's dollars out of horny teenagers) you guys find has a strong global appeal. How does Riot research this? There are certainly prominent tropes or themes in American culture - I mean, if we look at the present gaming industry, the centric themes of 'gritty brown-tinted blood-on-the-screen shooter', 'Tolkienesque fantasy', and 'space' come to mind immediately as scenarios that are done again and again, to much success. Something like Nocturne might have a global appeal because legends of ghosts, the afterlife, etc., have been historically embedded in virtually every culture. I remember Xypherous saying something about Orianna (the best character in the game!) having a very 'niche' appeal - to fans of dancers, the undead, challenging heroes, etc.

I'm a little concerned that the need for global appeal may stifle the need for creative heroes. LoL has some great thematic characters - Graves would be a good example (in my opinion) of someone with a popular, pre-established (though not particularly creative) role as a cowboy - but between his visual representation as a character, and his voice acting, his story arc, etc., he comes off as a very 'whole' and well-rounded character. You did a lot with a tried-and-true formula, if that makes any sense. But (though I'm just speaking for myself), I think the 'weird' or 'niche' characters bring a lot more to a game. Even a well-done (and he was well-done) cowboy is still another cowboy - it isn't exciting. A void monster portrayed as a hellbeast from the great beyond, when he's really exploring a new world by eating everything? A sentient gargoyle who guarded the bones of his master for ages, seeking repentance? An eerie shell of a girl made by her father who went mad with grief after her death? These characters feel like they bring novelty, and meaning, to the game. To put it another way, it's more fun playing a character who isn't more of the same. Lore matters. Flavor matters. Really! At least, to some of us.

tl;dr: Please don't sacrifice novelty for global appeal in all cases. Unique and exciting characters are a lot more fun. The game needs its Garens, and I understand that, but flavor is what makes some characters shine so much brighter than others - I'd ask that you consider niche markets for at least some champions in the future.
How I loved reading your post, you've conveyed my feelings exactly as I've been trying to express since friday lol.

I love the way you summarized Galio, Orianna and Omen, I think so too that he's in this world 'exploring' with his own means, which is "killing/eating" everything, I wouldn't want to repeat myself, but you should read a couple of my replies, we seem to think alike a LOT.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...7#post21399057

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...=#post21433776


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Celebi

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

02-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delifox View Post
Passive: Poison Fangs, autoattacking (biting) makes enemy receive XX damage (increased by AD and AP, more with AP) over XX seconds, the effect is increased if the enemy is bleeding
Q: Ravaging strikes, close range frontal cone attack (channeled, hits 3 times with claws within a second) that makes the enemies bleed for X seconds (flat damage increased by level and gains bonus from AD, bleed increased by AD and AP, more with AP) quite short cooldown, due the channeling requirement
W: Hunter's instinct, if moving towards enemy player gives massive speed boost for few seconds, if running away from enemy gives slightly lesser speed boost (speed increased by level and cooldown reduced, pretty long CD at first)
E: Indimitation, causes short AoE fear for 1 second around the Omen, nearby allied players gain small boost to damage (damage bonus increased by level)
R: Omen starts devouring an enemy player stunning him for the duration, the skill causes bleed effect (devouring damage increased by AD, bleed damage increased by AD and AP, more with AP)

MAKE IT HAPPEN, NAO! LoL doesn't have beastly enough champions yet, apart from Cho and even he's not really all that beastly and brutal.. >:
I agree, Cho'Gath's not fulfilling the Void Godzilla role anymore, but as for the kit, I'd make it more like this:

Type: Ranged DPS

Passive: Every few seconds, Omen's next basic attack will strike 2/3/4 times, dealing increased damage, scales with attack speed. (For the whole, 'the faster the stronger' thing for his attacks)

Q: Omen slithers about furiously, gaining an extreme movement speed boost that last for a few seconds, when the effect ends Omen becomes stealthed for 2.5 seconds.

W: Omen charges his attack to deal a bleeding effect, activating this ability increases Omen's attack speed for a few seconds.

E: Omen launches all his spikes in a line in front of him, dealing reduced damage for each hit landing. If all spines hit the target, the opponent receives a slow that lasts for a few seconds.

R: Omen retracts all his spines and charges his power, after channeling, Omen gains increased Attack Speed, Attack Damage and Movement Speed, reactivating the ability unleashes a damaging AoE around him that lasts for a few seconds. (Just like Riven's increased damage from reforging the sword, then unleashing its power before it turning back to normal)

This isn't perfect, but then again I just came up with this, Riot has weeks to make abilities for new champions, so yeah.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Unemployed Ninja

Senior Member

02-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teemaw View Post
I think we should replace leona with omen. Agree?
This is a wonderful idea. Leona is just some chick in armor. Kayle easily replaces her in that role, so let's just remove Leona entirely, and add in Omen.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dasick

Member

02-26-2012

Omen looks like a Moorwen

Riot y u no deliver


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Celebi

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Recruiter

02-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigeInuzuka View Post
I don't really get why reds dislike Omen's look... they say he doesn't looks like any role at all, well does Cho looks like a tank when he's tiny? no... does shen looks like a tank AT ALL? no... Skarner doesn't looks like a tanky dps either, if any he looks like a tank too, specially with his shield on...

I really like Omen's look, because it reminds me of Cho, do I care if there's a lot of cho's running around on the void? no, he's the one that made it out of the void and into the league.

I loved, LOVED, ziggs because he broke with the human-like creatures, even though he has 2 legs, 1 head and 2 arms, he's fluffy and cheschire-catsy crazy; Nautilus? not at all, what's nautilus supposed to be? a monster? why not give him 8 arms or 7 eyes? no, instead you go for a humanoid look that disbands the whole appeal of the guy, same thing with xerath, 2 legs, when you could of just made a cone there and have him fly about imprisoned in his coffin, your champs are becoming more and more human and that's boring, Fiora is just another human, although I admit the game needed a female melee dps, but why couldn't she be a female gigantic bee for example? a female yordle would be fine too! one that's gracious instead of burly or tomboyish.

Seriously having a new champ every 2 weeks is fine for me but I think the game has changed way too much from when cho, and kog were released and you should take at least a look at the past and learn a bit from yourselves, I hope one day I could have a team full of void creatures at least by skins!
I COMPLETELY agree with you...

So far we only have 4 champions relating the void, Cho'Gath, Kog'Maw, Kassadin & Malzahar... It's a shame that a theme with as much potential as "the Void" is barely used... These 4 champs have been out forever... The last one coming from the void was Kog'Maw, and he came out 40 champions ago... That's WAY too much... I'm starting to lose faith in Riot, they always brought back the hope when suprising me greatly, but this time, shelving Omen just confused me completely, I swear I don't expect anything great of the next 5 champions after Fiora...

Not to mention Amumu looks SO bad in contrast to Omen, how did he pass for a champion, but Omen gets shelved... Seriously... Sometimes I wish I worked for Riot... I wonder how these meetings turn out making such poor decisions on champs with such GREAT potential...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

concretebuddha

Senior Member

02-26-2012

Omen should be a melee assassin WITH an ability that shoots spines. Think Talon.

Problem Solved.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

02-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reifke Vlasir View Post
I think the problem here with Omen is more with the designers who tried to push a kit onto his design instead of letting his design push on his kit.

Omen, design wise from a character and artistic standpoint is very good and unique. Omen shows as a demonic Cheshire Cat and gives off a vibe of a stealth assassin that goes in and gets out and doesn't show a shred of concern for what he is doing. But you gave him a Ranged DPS kit from the sounds of it, which just doesn't make sense.

I think Omen is a great concept visual and theme wise, but needs a kit the plays off his Cheshireness instead of pushing a Ranged DPS kit which was the problem before. I personally would love to see him some time down the line being released with a kit that plays off his great visual cues.
This. Omen has the best potential for melee assassin monster I've ever seen. You shouldn't have tried to make a square peg fit into a round hole.

"Biospine Launcher" is a concept that would fit a fish, porcupine, hedgehog, or insectoid monster much better than a lizard. An amphibious lion/pufferfish chimera thing would communicate that idea much clearer than Omen. Or just a Zaunite Cyborg animal (rocket dog) would really be the thing to do with it to immediately convey the status as ranged DPS.