@riot: Throwing Omen away for Riven?

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Zygen360

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Senior Member

02-26-2012

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Zygen360

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02-26-2012

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Quren

Senior Member

02-26-2012

He reminds me of those leaper guys from diablo.


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Zygen360

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02-26-2012

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NessOnett

Senior Member

02-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I don't think anyone has talked about lore in this thread - so I'm confused as to what angle you're coming from.

We're talking about character visuals. Visuals are kind of important for a game because they set expectations for gameplay. A thin dude with a ranged weapon? Is probably ranged. A beefy dude with an sword? Probably sturdy and hits you from melee.

Visuals also provide immersion and the feeling of uniqueness. Am I playing a generic unit? or am I playing with a character who has his own thoughts and signature style?
This is where I think the problem lies. You're attaching internal information to these visuals. You're saying "his visuals don't convey that he's ranged." So...don't make him ranged? People in this thread are attached purely to the visual of the character. With absolutely no relation to the skillset. So why not take the character model as it stands, and top-down a new skillset for him? You've said before you top-down some of your characters.(Well, not you specifically Xyph, but some designers)

The way I see it, there's two options:

1. Make him melee. Attach his spines to a skill and not his autoattacks. Possibly turn him into an assassin, as that fits with the small body and melee. And the blood-hungry face on him. Take the feedback on what your testers "thought" he should be by looking at him, and make him that.

2. Take a look at DotA's "Weaver." And explain to me how he is different. He's a spindly little thing. And everything about the character's look screams "melee." But he's a ranged carry, and nobody questions that because of how he's presented.


Just take his character model ignoring all other facts. And explain what is wrong with that character model by itself. Giving infinite freedom on what directions to take his kit or lore. Because as far as "what's keeping there from being a million of them" where's two problems with that argument. First, what is keeping there from being a million turtles?(Rammus). A million blue-ninjas(Shen), they are designed to hide their individuality? A million Kogs. Those are all circumvented by lore, or just ignored completely. The second problem, why is that a bad thing? We have no broodmother, what is to stop this from being a swarm-oriented character. Since the visuals borrow from the zerg it seems to correct choice. There are plenty of ways you could have him split into multiple forms and have 4 or so of him skittering around.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

02-26-2012
60 of 62 Riot Posts

Quote:
You're saying "his visuals don't convey that he's ranged." So...don't make him ranged?
Bio-organic spines don't convey melee *or* ranged very well. In fact, given the number of responses to this thread, there's a solid set of people envisioning a ranged character and a solid set of people who think he's strictly melee.

That's the problem - He doesn't look like he belongs to any class. It goes back to making visuals intuitive - Regardless of wanting to make him melee/ranged/stealth/assassin/fighter, his art would still need to change to solve that problem - Visually, he'd actually be a lot stronger of a character without spines altogether.

Quote:
Because as far as "what's keeping there from being a million of them" where's two problems with that argument. First, what is keeping there from being a million turtles?(Rammus). A million blue-ninjas(Shen), they are designed to hide their individuality? A million Kogs.
It's true that some characters violate this principle - but it's far more dominant on dark/monstrous champions. Monsterous champions typically have to work the extra mile to avoid appearing like a miniboss of sorts - just due to the nature of 'Monsters are things to be killed.'

Any one of the three faults that I've listed could potentially derail a character - but Omen was in a special case of having all three of them at once and each solution to one part of the trio pulls apart from the other two - For example, the spines thing I've listed above, removing it makes him a stronger intuitive concept from a gameplay perspective - and it makes him look utterly generic.

Take Kog'maw for instance: Kog'maw's visual analogue is a puppy which gave him personality. He's also a cannon - which solves #1 neatly. Being slightly weak at looking unique is fine - because you know, being a puppy cannon compensates for that.

Quote:
But he's a ranged carry, and nobody questions that because of how he's presented.
I dislike this general line of argument - It's an inconsistency argument, but it tries to justify negatives by saying other negatives exist and are fine. Like 'I know a guy who stole stuff and got away with it, so I should be fine with stealing stuff.'

Don't get me wrong, It's a valid argument but we're steadily working on trying to figure out better standards.

Quote:
The second problem, why is that a bad thing? We have no broodmother, what is to stop this from being a swarm-oriented character.
Looking like there could be a million of you doesn't mean that you've successfully implied that he's a swarm oriented character - You bring up the example of broodmother - but there's the visual analogue - Insects are part of swarms, and are clearly recognizable as swarm hive - Looking like an insect is what makes you think swarm - not looking like a faceless creature.

Your other point about making a splitter champion is slightly more difficult to pull off. But looking like a minion of a demon army doesn't mean you've successfully made something that looks like he's a splitter character. You don't imply splitting by implying 'I look like a minion.' You imply splitting by establishing why/how something splits. For example, there's The Ooze and The Pandaren Brewmaster who do this decently - you split into the classic elements and you reform back into a more whole character.

Quote:
Niche
Lastly, Omen's major problem is that he's a combination of niche tropes. Needles plus Bio-Organic Alien plus Chesire Cat goes from niche onto niche onto niche. You get kind of like the 'B' movie effect with this - Completely loved cult classics that are awesome - but filled with flaws that no one really wants to address or fix because they don't matter to them.


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Alestar

Senior Member

02-26-2012

will he be getting a coffin at least?


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Ginga

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02-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Looking like there could be a million of you doesn't mean that you've successfully implied that he's a swarm oriented character - You bring up the example of broodmother - but there's the visual analogue - Insects are part of swarms, and are clearly recognizable as swarm hive - Looking like an insect is what makes you think swarm - not looking like a faceless creature.
Wait...this is a small nitpick, but isn't Broodmother a spider?


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

02-26-2012
61 of 62 Riot Posts

Quote:
Wait...this is a small nitpick, but isn't Broodmother a spider?
:<

Fine. Looking like a creature that stems from the phylum Athropod and being of either subphylum Hexapod or Chelicerata. XD


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Celebi

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02-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayjayko View Post
im sorry to say but that little dog-like creature could never be on par with the heros of the League :/ . It honestly looks like some small dog, and yeah there could be thousands just like it in the void. I honestly think it should at least get x3 in size or some demonic-like humanoid trainer as it's master that walks with it?

Also to note, since alot of work was already put into Omen, why not just release him as a 3150 squishy ranged DPS champ? Toss alittle lore on it and Bam, more money for you guys from the omen fanatics
Really? You clearly have never seen a lizard in your life...

Also, if you relate the flowers on the side to Omen, you can tell he's bigger than a yordle, and a little bit smaller than Cho'Gath...

Also, if he was to be released, I'd want him 6300, free week rotations are already enough for me, I see ENOUGH noobs that can't handle champs we've had forever in ranked, I don't need a new wave of scrubs buying Omen because he's so cheap, and failing at him because they can't adapt to a champion properly before going in a ranked game with him...