The Problem with ELO(not a rant, please read)

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exo521

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Senior Member

07-11-2012

Ive been thinking about this for sometime, like many others in this game i am frustrated by the current ELO system and the so called "ELO Hell" while the principle of the ELO system is sound, their is one fundamental flaw why it doesnt work in LoL. The ELO system was designed for 1v1 games. In particular, Chess. The system is simple, Win vs your opponent and you ELO goes up, lose and it goes down. It does take into account the difference in ELO, a player with 100 ELO higher than his opponent is expected to win 5 out of 8 games. therefor, the would receive less ELO for wining then his opponent would if he were to lose.

Okay, so now we all have an idea of how ELO works, so whats the problem? The problem is that LoL is not a 1v1 game. This game is extremely team oriented and requires all 5 players to do their job to achieve victory. ELO does work for rating 5v5 teams, because they are rated as a unit, how well they do as a team vs other teams. However in a solo que, there is no method for differentiating between a very highly skilled player and a very low skilled player who may end up on the same team. Here is the flaw, and the creation of "ELO Hell" where good and bad players and endless mixed together and either can cause the out come of the game to be a win or loss, but both receive the same reward for it.

Lets take a look at a few scenarios:

After 15min (roughly end of lane phase)
mid lane has been wining their lane vs an decent opponent, they are up 2-1-1 and have out farmed by 20cs.
bot lane is even, 1-1-1 and roughly the same cs. both your side and the other are evenly skilled.
but your top lane has fed, they died 5 times(0-5-0), and allowed free farming. and now the other lanes are being ganked by a fed top lane.

This game ends in a loss. Everyone on the team loses -15 ELO

This is just a random scenario i thought up to illustrate a point. Which is, while the Bot player was even, and presumably playing in the correct skill level and the mid player was ahead, perhaps better then this skill level, both are tied to the mistakes of top lane, and all are punished equally for his poor play.

Dont read to much into my scenario and say "well if bot and mid were good enough they'd carry top in team fights" that is not the point. Or perhaps it is, the point is they shouldnt HAVE to carry other members on the team, this is a team game where everyone is 1/5th responsible for the win. It is unfair to ask other players who may be fairly good to take up the slack of those around them, and often impossible to do, because chances are if your teammate was bad in lane phase, they will be no better in team fights. When fighting virtually 4v5 it is very hard to pull off wins.

This is why the ELO system as it works now does not work for LoL. It was never designed for a team based game where the teammates dont know each other and have never played together before.

My purposed solution is a secondary system. One that reflects the players score
Clearly the objective is to win, and winning should remain the main cause for ELO to raise or drop, however a secondary system that is based off players scores would help deferential between the good and bad players of each game, it would show whether you carried your team to victory, or fed your lane and caused a loss.

The change would be simple.

Set a max ELO gain or loss for each game. Lets say, +/- 15
Then award ELO based on the result of the game. +/- 10
Lastly, look at scores:
Kills: +1
Deaths: -1
Assist: +.60

now we have a system to determine the good players from the bad on both wining and losing teams.

Lets return to our earlier scenario and see how it looks now.

Our bot lane 1-1-1 would lose -10 for losing the game, but then receive +.6ELO for his score. a net change of -9.4 ELO
Our mid lane 2-1-1 would lose -10 for losing the game, but receive +1.6 for his score, a net result of -8.4ELO
Our top lane, who fed and caused the loss, would lose -10 for losing, and -5 for his score, result of -15ELO

In all 3 cases, all players still lost ELO for losing the game, but the blow was softened for those players who played well in the loss compared to those who did not. the change is not drastic but its enough that over time, this would help separate good from bad players better then the current system.

"But im still learning and sometimes i have bad games; But what if one guy gets really fed, hed jump too much ELO from one hame"

No, your forgetting that there is a max change of +/- 15 ELO per game and 10 of that is from the win or loss. Therefor your score can only effect at max, a +/- 5 ELO change at the end of the game, regardless if you roflstomped 15-0-10 or you got dominated 0-10-0.


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Vizzlepeez

Senior Member

07-11-2012

Interesting idea.

Though ud create a problem giving kills more elo than assists cuz it would make not being one of the carries that less popular. Y not combine the two in some way or make them equal. I kno we are only talking about a max of five elo here but i have enough trouble trying to get people to pick support in queue and any improvement that doesnt favor supports wouldnt help that.


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Sexual Healing

Senior Member

07-11-2012

Same post, different thread.

Elo system is fine.

Get Good, Bro.


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gvaness

Senior Member

07-11-2012

Taking anything in a team game and basing the rank on individual performance is going to fail. Kill stealing would become a legitimate tactic to move up in ELO, resulting in even more crying.
There are many cases where the guy going 3/0 is a horrible team player. Constantly doing his own thing, not helping in team fights, taking off instead of risking a death to secure a few kills. These are not attributes we want to associate with good players.


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Kavrae

Senior Member

07-11-2012

I do like the idea, though it certainly promotes K/D over objectives, which is a problem already. However, taking those into account is going to be difficult. How do you account for someone that counterjungles and ganks without kills (they escape but lose lane and flash) who effectively shuts down parts of the enemy team? What about a tank that holds someone off long enough for their carry to break a tower? The carries who just sat in lane will still get more Elo for doing less.

Also.... I agree with Vizzle, though that's mostly because I'm biased from maining support

@MrChampagne I disagree. The elo system is fine, as OP said, for 5v5 premade. For solo queue it is not.

EDIT After gvaness post
It's sad, but I think you're entirely right.... KS would become a huge problem; as would people that purposefully ignore the objectives to go on killing sprees. I seem to recall a Talon that had 45 kills but his team lost because he stole every kill he could and delayed the game.


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Gift of God

Junior Member

07-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvaness View Post
Taking anything in a team game and basing the rank on individual performance is going to fail. Kill stealing would become a legitimate tactic to move up in ELO, resulting in even more crying.
There are many cases where the guy going 3/0 is a horrible team player. Constantly doing his own thing, not helping in team fights, taking off instead of risking a death to secure a few kills. These are not attributes we want to associate with good players.
ive been in games where top has been fed 5/0 and would still be in top farming while we teamfighted 4v5


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FreshFuhrer

Senior Member

07-11-2012

I don't think that kills and assists should gain different points of ELO because it would result in kill steals

What if it was .8 for either a kill, or assist? So if you had 3 kills and 2 assists you gained an additional 4 points.
Edit: Wow, this was gone over already. Sorry.


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Rillain

Senior Member

07-11-2012

Great idea! This would really help like if you were a 9-0-3 lee sin and your team somehow manages to lose for you.


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iLaser

Member

07-11-2012

I agree with this post, but I would prefer making kills and assists the same amount of point gain. I love to play support, but this system would want me to play otherwise.


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deirin

Senior Member

07-11-2012

lol...what about afkers in game...
or like newb darius who ks all kill unfeeding ur whole team
or like super good tank that won the game but oh...not much kill
or cc
or w/e actually...

hint: ur system is flawed BIG TIME kills dont mean skills


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