My name is Renekton, and I dislike towers.

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Plati

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Champions have finite power budgets. We can let Renekton kill towers faster, but we have to take power from elsewhere. Rengar is in this position -- his pushing power combined with his ability to duel severely constrains how much power he can have elsewhere on his kit.

In the end, the choice is up to the designer who made the champion as to where they want this budget to be spent. Personally, I tend to disfavor substantially augmenting tower damage on my own -- Darius's W doesn't grant bonus damage on towers; Zyra's plants don't attack towers and die in 1 hit to them; Thresh's E passive doesn't proc on towers.
That's kind of weak reasoning to the issue at hand. It's an obvious inconsistency that provides players with guesswork where there should not be any. Why would it be so hard to either allow all or allow none? I don't think anyone would care if you made all of these abilities not work on towers, the issue is consistency, not making X or Y champion more or less powerful.


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FlutterShen

Senior Member

09-08-2013

I agree with the request for consistency. I wouldn't mind all physical attack on hit abilities to affect towers. There's nothing more pleasing than Trundle Q on a tower. That's right, I just BIT a tower. WITH TEETH. #Trolling

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plati View Post
That's kind of weak reasoning to the issue at hand. It's an obvious inconsistency that provides players with guesswork where there should not be any. Why would it be so hard to either allow all or allow none? I don't think anyone would care if you made all of these abilities not work on towers, the issue is consistency, not making X or Y champion more or less powerful.
Oh I disagree, EVERYONE would care if it was removed, everyone who plays those champs.

The only risk I feel is if an ability is deemed TOO good on turrets, such someone has an on hit that can..hm...2 shot towers...hm... and has bombs... hm... and is a yordle... Ahhh but there I go digressing again!


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Splendid Cake

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Champions have finite power budgets. We can let Renekton kill towers faster, but we have to take power from elsewhere. Rengar is in this position -- his pushing power combined with his ability to duel severely constrains how much power he can have elsewhere on his kit.

In the end, the choice is up to the designer who made the champion as to where they want this budget to be spent. Personally, I tend to disfavor substantially augmenting tower damage on my own -- Darius's W doesn't grant bonus damage on towers; Zyra's plants don't attack towers and die in 1 hit to them; Thresh's E passive doesn't proc on towers.
So what about Tryndamere?


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BrandNameZombie

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MostlySilent View Post
(I'd first like to apologize for the length, the first part is verbose for fun, skip the first couple of paragraphs to get to the real point, I'm tired of inconsistencies in what does and doesn't work vs towers, among other issues, the quote of myself is a comparison of Renekton's W to Shyvana's Twin Bite and Talon's Noxian Diplomacy.)


So I really, REALLY want to kill them as fast as possible.

But, what's that, I can't use my W (Ruthless Predator) on towers!


Wait a minute, perhaps that's fair I might kill towers too fast ya'know with an auto attack reset and a double hit.

Wait a minute, that other lizard... Shyvana, yeah that other lizard who happens to be a lot smaller than I am.


Gets to use her Q on towers. (Twin Bite)

But wait, that's not an auto attack reset and a double hit... wait yes it is.


And it hits harder than my Ruthless Predator unless I have fury, and the stun doesn't matter to towers anyway. Oh, and it's physical damage. Oh and its cooldown is lower with scaling back as I keep hitting the tower making it drastically lower.


Oh.


And Talon get's to use Noxian Diplomacy.
Nasus gets Siphoning Strike.
Garen gets Decisive Strike.


EDIT: And Blitzcrank's Power Fist

And Sivir's Ricochet (But not Vayne's Tumble apparently)
And Wukong's Crushing Blow



Supposedly Yorick's Q (Omen of War) resets his auto attack and Yorick hits the tower with it, but no ghoul is spawned. So basically the same as Ruthless Predator. S'posedly the damage from the Q itself isn't applied, and the buff is kept until it runs out (15 seconds) so he's in the same boat as me, even if he's not nearly mantastic enough for it.



What is this, why am I left out? All I want to do is use my on-next-hit proc to attack towers like everyone else.


tl;dr Why can't Ruthless Predator be used on towers while Twin Bite, Decisive Strike, Noxian Diplomacy, and Siphoning Strike can?


On the topic of things like.

Jax
Poppy
Mordekaiser

Those all deal magic damage, which does make them different than the others. (And the only spell that damages buildings is Rammus' Tremors, which specifically states this as an effect. The only other one that did, Heimerdinger's Grenade, got nerfed lik 4 times until that effect was removed. So magic damage spells not affecting towers is a lot more consistent than physical on-hits not.)

Yeah it's still sort of an inconsistency, but Ruthless Predator is a worse offender due to being physical damage with the others that do work being physical damage.

Plus Poppy and Mordekaiser's on-hits are huge, huge damage on a really low CD. Not a justification against it, just throwing that out there.





Mathcraft on page 5 for those of you who like mathcraft.

I don't really, but it's there to show the numbers on Ruthless Predator vs towers using a 200 AD benchmark is weaker than Talon's Noxian Diplomacy and that other lizard's Twin Bite. (Shyvana)








I was flipping through my old threads out of boredom and I ran across this. I never got a straight answer and it still bothers me.

I don't really want to buff Renekton at this point, but I do like consistency and things working as expected so I stand by they should all work or none at all.

Also, also, I'll edit the math in a second. It's dated from my last quote.
Alistair's passive hurts towers


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hashinshin

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Champions have finite power budgets. We can let Renekton kill towers faster, but we have to take power from elsewhere. Rengar is in this position -- his pushing power combined with his ability to duel severely constrains how much power he can have elsewhere on his kit.

In the end, the choice is up to the designer who made the champion as to where they want this budget to be spent. Personally, I tend to disfavor substantially augmenting tower damage on my own -- Darius's W doesn't grant bonus damage on towers; Zyra's plants don't attack towers and die in 1 hit to them; Thresh's E passive doesn't proc on towers.
But, unless it was changed, Darius's W DOES grant bonus damage on towers. It's quite good at mauling them in fact.

Also, when is Darius gonna get buffed? Don't be shy now


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Splendid Cake

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
But, unless it was changed, Darius's W DOES grant bonus damage on towers. It's quite good at mauling them in fact.

Also, when is Darius gonna get buffed? Don't be shy now
Well after a season of silence, he said they will talk to us about bruisers in 2-6 weeks.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendid Cake View Post
Well after a season of silence, he said they will talk to us about bruisers in 2-6 weeks.
The current route seems to be "lets give bruisers really good items that also ranged champions can use!"

quickly followed by

"OH GOD RANGED CHAMPIONS ARE USING THEM, NERF NOW!"

Phage and trinity have brought at least one bruiser out of an early grave, and will be promptly trounced in with nerfs cause Ezreal and Corki are abusing it.


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Raiyn

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Champions have finite power budgets. We can let Renekton kill towers faster, but we have to take power from elsewhere. Rengar is in this position -- his pushing power combined with his ability to duel severely constrains how much power he can have elsewhere on his kit.

In the end, the choice is up to the designer who made the champion as to where they want this budget to be spent. Personally, I tend to disfavor substantially augmenting tower damage on my own -- Darius's W doesn't grant bonus damage on towers; Zyra's plants don't attack towers and die in 1 hit to them; Thresh's E passive doesn't proc on towers.

Split push tryndamere is a nightmare and hes a nightmare because of dueling and damage he puts on towers. Could you shed some light on his power balance?


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MostlySilent

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Senior Member

09-08-2013

Siphoning Strike working is the worst offender.

I'd believe that Ruthless Predator was over the line because of how, "Bursty" it is.


In the sense that you got to the tower for just a moment, but W'd it for a 585 raw damage. That'd suck when he's sieging you, right? (It would.)This is honestly the only, "Power budget" offender I can think of, unless Renekton isn't allowed to kill towers quickly while split pushing. (Which he'll do anyway if you get an early Hydra.)


Then Nasus gives towers the pimp hand for a 600-800 every three or less seconds.


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Celestya

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Senior Member

09-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
The current route seems to be "lets give bruisers really good items that also ranged champions can use!"

quickly followed by

"OH GOD RANGED CHAMPIONS ARE USING THEM, NERF NOW!"

Phage and trinity have brought at least one bruiser out of an early grave, and will be promptly trounced in with nerfs cause Ezreal and Corki are abusing it.
There's a wonderfully easy fix they could do, but I'll bet they won't. Same problem occurred with BotRK (somewhat) and it still isn't done either.