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Jjaja's Udyr Build

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Viktoree

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Sauron:
And a wild Sauron comes out of it!


I knew Sauron would come out eventually.


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v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Nny00000:
In case anyone was interested:

I was curious if, mathematically, starting chain vest + cloth armor would be better when facing a physical bot, so I went about calculating the effective health. Assuming all things equal (And armor mastery/hp+3% mastery), at level 4 Udyr has 37 armor and 848 HP.

Doran's Shield of +247 HP and +20 AR = 1,719 eHP
Chain Vest and Cloth Armor of +63 AR = 1696 eHP

On top of that, Doran's Shield gives an extra 13 HP/5 (taking into consideration the healing CS nerf), so that's 156 extra HP every minute. The starting difference isn't much, but as the match goes on the HP/5 certainly brings shield to the forefront.

And Ninja Tabi is also inferior; Assuming all hits are AA, it's the equivalent of 43 armor at level 4 (Making it a more expensive and less effective chain vest for +20 move speed).

You can't just plug in 240HP and 20armor on leaguecraft, and then do the same with Chainvest + Cloth armor and call it a day. You have to consider that his shield every 5seconds(something you're nearly, or are, maxing first) is exactly the same as a small heal every 5seconds if it's being broken through, and I think everyone has come to the realization at some point that heals on a more heavily armored target are worth more. So while that HP+armor has the initial edge the armor from raw resistances will prove your constant healing(sheilds and even your hp5, base or otherwise) to be much more effective. I've done the math on this already using the same starting items(2x dorans) but with armor seals, armor quints instead of hp/5 and saw much better results over a one minute period when spamming shield on cd(12shields in a minute), and this was considering total effective health; not simply physical effective health. If I was to consider only physical effective health it would blow hp/5 out of the water. But obviously that is runing one resistance vs a specific type of damage where HP/5 is good against both.


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Nny

Member

02-16-2012

You're right I forgot about shield, but I didn't say anything about armor seals, I think it'd be rather obvious armor seals would be better.

And 12 shields in a minute is rather optimistic. It's on a 6 second cooldown (It's 5 if you're running 17% CD) and considering lag it's close to a 7 second cooldown. You're looking more at 8 shields per minute if you're spamming it, 9 if you have a great connection.

The added armor would add 43 effective health per shield, or 31 HP/5. So that's 18 HP/5 difference. Tack on unable to buy red pots and that's ~73 seconds it takes for Vest/Armor to outweigh shields assuming all shields are broken. By that point, one would have leveled up, making effective shield health 60 instead of 43, so would be smaller than that.


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v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Nny00000:
You're right I forgot about shield, but I didn't say anything about armor seals, I think it'd be rather obvious armor seals would be better.

And 12 shields in a minute is rather optimistic. It's on a 6 second cooldown (It's 5 if you're running 17% CD) and considering lag it's close to a 7 second cooldown. You're looking more at 8 shields per minute if you're spamming it, 9 if you have a great connection.

The added armor would add 43 effective health per shield, or 31 HP/5. So that's 18 HP/5 difference. Tack on unable to buy red pots and that's ~73 seconds it takes for Vest/Armor to outweigh shields assuming all shields are broken. By that point, one would have leveled up, making effective shield health 60 instead of 43, so would be smaller than that.


I know you hadn't mentioned armor seals, I was just drawing the parallel between HP/5 itemization and raw stats(as you had to some degree). The math I had done was considering runes, where you were considering starting items. It doesn't matter much because the point of me posting wasn't to directly relate them but just to mention that you'd forgoten about shield healing and that higher resistances actually improves the effectiveness of both your shield heals and any hp/5 or potions you have.

You're probably right about 12shields in one minute being optimistic, but for the rune/mastery set I was considering it included flat cdr glyphs and cdr/lvl in the defensive tree. To be honest I can't see the mastery tree Jjaja linked, it brings up the mastery builder with 30points remaining so I'm not sure how he built it but I was going 0/21/9(which is pretty standard imo). At level four that leaves me with 7.65%cdr making it a 5.54~ cd. With that cd you get 10.83~(almost 11) shields in 60seconds, so yea, not 12. But like I said the numbers were ahead by quite a large margin and I even took the numbers from an overall effective health point of view rather than vs one damage type, which would skew the numbers even farther. If you'd like I can copy/paste what I was scribbling in a notepad xD

By the way, I'm not suggesting you start chain vest+cloth armor(I'm not sure of the numbers on this), like I said in my first paragraph this was concerning runes. I just wanted to point out the higher effective healing on shield/hp/5 on higher resistance targets. I think Doran's Shields are extremely strong vs physical, I'd only take something different(as Jjaja does) vs an AP.


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lbgsloan

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Yeah, I was going to ask if this build is still viable without the hp/5 runes. I have Udyr but I'm not about to drop a ton of IP for such a specialized rune build. Could it work with armour seals and whatever for quints, or does the whole build hinge on having massive regen?


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Bonabon

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
lbgsloan:
Yeah, I was going to ask if this build is still viable without the hp/5 runes. I have Udyr but I'm not about to drop a ton of IP for such a specialized rune build. Could it work with armour seals and whatever for quints, or does the whole build hinge on having massive regen?
I remember Jjaja saying in another topic that he uses HP/5 because it's effective against both AD and AP alike, but if you know who you're going to bot lane against it makes more sense to get the appropriate resists.


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AAARRRRGGGGGHHHH

Senior Member

02-16-2012

tried it out. wrecked GP at bottom, but started losing it when top ashe started coming down to help. frost shot op.

they would keep it 2v1, and I don't really think Udyr is a great 2v2 or 2v1er (at least not against Ashe). couldn't defend it long enough for top to make use of the 3v4.


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v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

02-16-2012

I've also had success with out hp/5 runes. I don't think they make or break the build but it would be nice to have.


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Darmival

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
AAARRRRGGGGGHHHH:

they would keep it 2v1, and I don't really think Udyr is a great 2v2 or 2v1er (at least not against Ashe). couldn't defend it long enough for top to make use of the 3v4.


Yes, Ashe wrecks Udyr. she can kite you all day long and you can't do jack to her.

Quote:
v4v3nd3774:

To be honest I can't see the mastery tree Jjaja linked, it brings up the mastery builder with 30points remaining so I'm not sure how he built it but I was going 0/21/9(which is pretty standard imo).


I looked Jjaja up and I am fairly sure they are running a 9/21/0 build for Udyr .. screw talent builders see below

4 mental force + 4 sorcery + 1 arcane knowledge
1 summoner resolve+3 resistance+ 3 hardniness+3 vigor+1 indomitable+3 evasion+3 enlightenment+3 honor guard+1 Juggernaut


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Draydan

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Darmival:
The mastery link does not seem to work for me


You have to remove all "amp;" manually.
Riot's redirecting breaks GET query


I thought and decided to add shot here.