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VMan7's 5v5 Ranked Tier List.

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Meowzor

Recruiter

07-26-2010

Quote:
VMan7:
He has his uses, however there's really no reason to focus him if you go tank, and if you go AP, his Q is relatively easy to dodge, as well as you become squishy. Can be useful however.


You left out the 4 second AoE silence that could shut down a team very easily. AoE + the longest one in the game.


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SlammerPanda

Senior Member

07-26-2010

Quote:
Churchy:
zzzshamanpanda

I mean, not to discount your opinion or anything, but do you have another account?

Because I don't think you should be arguing with a top 50 player about how well a champion does when you have 93 normal wins with a 1328 unranked rating and are 11-8 in ranked with a 1200ish rating.


No I do not have.
However, despite that I am yet to be level 30, (currently level 23) I'm confident enough in my abilities that I am able to see the inner workings of lane domination and perhaps a bit of the metagame as well.
After all, I have an extensive history with DotA and have played competitively at local tournaments and such.

Furthermore, if you look at my statistics with Katarina, I have yet to lose a game on ranked with her (yes I know, it doesn't look like much since I'm still in the low ELO bracket, but that would also mean I have had to carry bads against possibly bads) and that I'm not doing too shabby with her on normal either.

In any case, I don't see how this has any relevance to the points I have made. I have stated numbers that can be proven, and theories that in essence are true.
I would like to see someone now debunk that with something other than Ad Hominem.


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Churchy

Friend of Urf

07-26-2010

Quote:
zzzshamanpanda:
No I do not have.
However, despite that I am yet to be level 30, (currently level 23) I'm confident enough in my abilities that I am able to see the inner workings of lane domination and perhaps a bit of the metagame as well.
After all, I have an extensive history with DotA and have played competitively at local tournaments and such.

Furthermore, if you look at my statistics with Katarina, I have yet to lose a game on ranked with her (yes I know, it doesn't look like much since I'm still in the low ELO bracket, but that would also mean I have had to carry bads against possibly bads) and that I'm not doing too shabby with her on normal either.

In any case, I don't see how this has any relevance to the points I have made. I have stated numbers that can be proven, and theories that in essence are true.
I would like to see someone now debunk that with something other than Ad Hominem.


Dota and LoL are very different games. Very different.

The fact that you are even arguing katarina's weak early game (sorry, "relatively weak&quot discounts your opinion on its own. Oh, that's right, the relative strengths of champions is an opinion. The general opinion is that Katarina has a very powerful early game. If someone is looking for an opinion, they will most likely ask the person who has more experience and a higher rating because that rating indicates a higher skill level.

Katarina has one of the best early games if not THE best early game. She doesn't use mana. Use your "math" and guesswork to attempt to show that Kat's damage output is lower than Annies, if annie has a stun up at level 2 and kat engages with creeps to hit her and goes for a level 2 first blood. Surely that's a logical argument for why Kat is bad.

That's a cute little fantasy world you have there, but here is how Annie and Kat are played:

Annie uses Q to farm. Annie's last hit animation is pretty horrendous. She Q's often and always, stun up or not. If she doesn't, she isn't getting last hits nearly as easily. It's still doable, but nearly every Annie you see is using both her autoattack and Q to get last hits. If you are fighting against an Annie who has her stun up perpetually from level 2 on...why haven't you won yet? You simply last hit more than her and stay back. Annie doesn't lane harass until she has level 2 or 3 Q at the earliest. Any earlier and it's honestly wasted mana.

Kat has not one, but two last hitting abilities. You don't even need to worry about missing, because unlike annie, you don't need to get the last hit to get your mana restored, because you don't use mana.

Also, since apparently you go for a balls to the wall approach at getting kills and try to kill her in one shot, let me explain harass to you. Annie's harass is very good. Kat's is better. Annie has to get in range to harass. Kat can bounce her blade through minions if her opponent gets close to them. This is true with nearly every champion. Kat can harass better, stronger, faster, harder. Your bounces don't go right? You don't have mana: no worries. You don't kill the enemy mid? You don't have mana: no worries. Why on earth would you charge in to kill Annie and blow both your summoner spells if you can't kill her?


Kat can KI-->shunpo-->bouncing blade and run back to safety. Even if Annie retaliates quickly enough, Kat did more damage. Why do you want to autoattack her? Kat can harass fine without autoattacks.

So you can hit her with shunpo and BB (both level 1) for 160 damage at level 3 and be hit for 182.5 from both of Annie's spells (if she reacts fast enough). This is applying KI's damage reduction to shunpo but not including magic resist (which Kat gets a per level bonus to unlike most other heroes).


And guess what? Kat STILL wins. Do you know why? Because Kat doesn't use mana. If annie doesn't take doran's ring first she is squishy and has no mana regen. You can simply run her out of mana and then attack. Some people grab mana crystal and 2xhealth pots. Rarer still I see some health crystals. But Annie rarely gets passive health regen. Kat can start with a dorans shield and simply outregen her opponent, because she doesn't have to spend any money or runes on mana regen.

Your opponent can go boots+3 pots for some crazy early regen and harass, and you can apply your KI+BB to cut that healing by 25% (50% for 10/20 seconds).

But anyway, realizing that all of the above was more or less in response to a fictional situation that you created in response to a fictional situation made by another player, I will address your original points as to why Kat is a "relatively weak" early champion.

Quote:
Forgive me if I use DotA too much in my examples, I played a LOT of that (even competitively at local tournaments and such).

From what I see it, Katarina is similar to PA (Phantom Assassin) from DotA. Both have relatively weak early-games, and start to carry mid-game. Both are melee, both have a spammable farming spell (Stifling Dagger and Bouncing Blade), both have a blinkstrikesque ability, and an ult that allows them to deal insane burst, albeit in different ways. One relies solely on their ult being up to deal insane damage, while the other deals it via lucky crits.

In the DotA community, sure you had those who cried about PA being overpowered because she had the potential to literally 3 shot your team if you guys were close together enough and she got 3 1.4k crits in a row. However, she's still ignored competitively because she's too **** squishy and a few select items/skills will counter her. It's the same case here, except Katarina is even more situational. One stun/silence/knockback and you're done, no 2k damage in 3 secs via Death Lotus. In addition, this game offers no BKB (Black King Bar, which grants 5-10 sec Magic Immunity), which was the core for any carry in DotA, barring a few (N'aix and Juggernaut come to mind for the most part).

So based on this, I see Kat as little different from PA, though even worse in the regard of reliability and squishiness (Kat can be instagibbed since there is no magic immunity granting item in this game). Also, with the advent of AP in this game, allowing people like Ryze to deal stupidly high amounts of damage when farmed, I'd say Kat falls behind PA by a long shot.

And if PA wasn't a thing to be QQ'd about..then why Kat?


Dota is a very different game. It is very hard to be instagibbed in LoL compared to Dota. Your comparisons are very stupid because outside of low elo, 1 person does not carry 4 others by farming all game. The game is much much more team oriented when it comes to actual fights. Katarina can be easily shut down. And if you have a heavy CC team line up to compliment her? IE: Mumu, Alistar, Taric? How do you shut her down then when you are all stunned/silenced/snared?

Barring that, how in anyway is she similar to PA? PA was a right click hero, Kat is an ability intensive champion. Their abilities may be somewhat similar, but their playstyles are vastly different.

Moving on to your comparison of Kat's DPS to Yi and Twitch, I have to say that you don't seem to understand why Kat is amazing. She has high burst damage. I guess if you play with ******s and can only land your ult in "perfect" situations, you would assume that having a decent team with an initiator like malphite/alistar/mumu to set up "perfect" situations for you are few and far between. Twitch and Yi don't even COMPARE to Katarina because you are comparing apples to oranges. Katarina is a spellcaster, not a physical carry.

Quote:
Beg your pardon?
I said relatively weak early game. Not useless. A good laning opponent will know to punish her for every shunpo she makes, as it places her immediately right next to you and gives her all the creep aggro (since she's damaging you). Granted she still has a very strong lane presence against certain heroes who lack a skill to punish with, but a competent players who can see that they're going up against a Kat will pick someone who WILL outlane her.


Here you show, once again, a severe lack of game knowledge. Damaging your opponents does not give you aggro on creeps. It gives tower aggro, but not creep aggro. Autoattacking gives you creep aggro. And Katarina does not autoattack. If you think shunpo places you next to the target so that you can autoattack, then you should pick a new character.

Quote:
Yes she has bouncing blades. But unless she spams them all on you, therefore making her lose her farm, it's not a terribly reliable source of harassment

I'm sorry, but I missed the part where BB was her only last hitting ability. I was under the impression that she had 2 manaless, low cooldown, damaging abilities that could be used to farm and harass, independent of eachother, in addition to her autoattack. I was under the impression that BB could hit a champion and push the lane and that shunpo could be used to last hit. Do those creepwaves of 6 units make it very hard for you to last hit with your manaless, spammable abilities? Nearly certain that you can get 95% of all last hits using only one+autoattacks, and then harass with the other.

Your post then has a segment taking a sarcastic remark seriously and replying to a simple (and very obviously sarcastic) comment on how easy her early game is. You know, because she doesn't have to manage mana or any other resource in place of it.

Honestly just the fact that your key reasons are comparisons to a game that is vastly different to LoL is enough to make me sure your arguments are wrong, despite your arbitrary situations.

But to finish it off with an ad hominem approach, your arguments are invalid pertaining to this list because:
A) You have no experience beyond 1300 to add valuable opinions to a tier list based on 1300-1700 rating.
B) You show clear lack of basic game knowledge in your post.
C) Your original argument is made up of comparisons to DoTA which, while it did inspire the basic format of LoL, is a very different game with very different rules, roles, items, and characters.
D) Your face
E) "Not doing too shabby" in normal games doesn't say much because your unranked rating is only slightly better than your ranked rating. Meaning that after ~180 games played in normal, you are only slightly above average. You could say it was "low elo hell" but that is a cop-out. Your rated games consist of you playing with possible bads against other possible bads. If you are going to qualify the other team as possibly bad, then you need to do the same for your own.
F) Your mother


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lFeb

Senior Member

07-26-2010

Why Akali better than Twitch?


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BitterRaccoon

Senior Member

07-26-2010

Quote:
SmackHoe:
[EMAIL="lol@list"]lol@list[/EMAIL].

Also not yellow post makes any tier list not credible.


They are purple now.


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da 2nd amendment

Senior Member

07-26-2010

Akali and Twitch arent really that comparable. Ranged carry vs nuker. Different roles, no?


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Ragefest

Senior Member

07-26-2010

And another random self adsorbed person makes a tier list. GG.


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UrsaMinor

Senior Member

07-26-2010

Yi and Gangplank on the same tier as Xin Zhao? Amusing.


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Churchy

Friend of Urf

07-26-2010

Quote:
Ragefest:
And another random self adsorbed person makes a tier list. GG.


What game are you playing atm sir, and why is it good?

Vman7 doesn't even mention his top 50 status in the post and so I have to question where you come from calling him "self-absorbed".

He does a popular livestream of his solo queue exploits and the request for a tier list from him probably originated from there.

Your mother.


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Naggarok

Recruiter

07-26-2010

A week ago, Veigar was barely above Evelynn and Tryndamere. Was his buff that major?