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VMan7's 5v5 Ranked Tier List.

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SlammerPanda

Senior Member

07-25-2010

Quote:
VMan7:
Having the best early game out of all heroes != invincible hero.



And I agree.
I never said she was invincible.
However, how do you expect to convince me she has the *best* early game out of *all* heroes when she's limited to one spell most of the time to harass and said spell ALSO serves as her primary farming ability?





Quote:
xDiamantx:
Who uses Shunpo to harass? Anyone skilled will take you out if you do.

A skilled Katarina only uses Shunpo when she's going in for the kill, Bouncing blades is what you should be harassing with.


Quote:
zzzshamanpanda:
If you're laned against a Ryze or Annie or any strong ranged with a disable for that matter, then your main source of last hits are from Bouncing Blades. If you're using them to harass, then you just lost out on your principle way of farm. If you're using them for last hits, then you've just lost on your principle way of harassment, unless you believe you have ridiculously high RNG and hope for the extra hit(s) (if you still decide to level up BB first) to land on the enemy.


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Hozartis

Senior Member

07-25-2010

I urge you to take another look at Poppy's tier. There's a reason Elementz brought her to A tier from B tier, which I agree with completely. He teams with Reginald, who popularized the Deathfire Grasp + Diplomatic Immunity Combo.

After many times I've played Poppy, I find the Deathfire Grasp, Sorc boots, Sheen, +19 Magic Penetration from runes, 15% penetration from masteries, allow me to kill any squishy early game and midgame without even the slightest problem. As I stack AP, the situation never changes, so I'm still powerful late game. Using ignite early prevents any burst heals from affecting them, and the only thing that saves them are Kayle's and Zil's Ult. Her greatest weakness are those two characters, with Zilean's being the worse. Although she fills a niche, she fulfills it extremely effectively and there are no characters that equal her in squishy assassination. She is what Akali and Eve want to be. You pick a squishy, and that squishy dies unless they are stacking MR or have fast enough reflexes to leave the battlefield altogether as you chase them away. The power is addicting.

I believe that Poppy is underrated because she is unpopular. You rarely see someone playing Poppy, therefore you rarely see a good Poppy at all. Unpopular characters are not always unpopular because they are bad, but that some element (or series of them) make them not fun. For example, she farms horribly poorly. This makes her laning phase rough. If you're up against a tough combination, it's 13-16 minutes of BS. However, bad farming doesn't effect her game that much, because she's not so equipment dependent to be an extremely valuable asset to the team.

However, it is a fact that support wins this game, and she has no support skills for her teammates. Because of this I cannot say she is top tier.


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VMan7

Recruiter

07-25-2010

Quote:
Hozartis:
I urge you to take another look at Poppy's tier. There's a reason Elementz brought her to A tier from B tier, which I agree with completely. He teams with Reginald, who popularized the Deathfire Grasp + Diplomatic Immunity Combo.
Deathfire Grasp + Diplomatic Immunity was already know by anyone who played DotA for any length of time.
Quote:


However, it is a fact that support wins this game, and she has no support skills for her teammates. Because of this I cannot say she is top tier.

Which is why she's only t3. If your opponent gets MR, you can no longer burst them with your combo until you get a void staff. Banshee's blocks your ult, so you better hope you also have something to pop it with or an Ashe to pop them from a distance.


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scarra

Senior Member

07-25-2010

Quote:
StyLeD:
I have solo'd a 1v1 Xin mid, and I have to say Xin completely facerolls Katarina.

Not only does her best harassing move place her in range of Xin's slow, but her ultimate is easily cancelled by Xin's 3-Talon. Shunpo is basically giving a free range advantage to Xin.


Xin will never beat a kat running ignite/exhaust unless the kat isn't playing well


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scarra

Senior Member

07-25-2010

Quote:
zzzshamanpanda:
And I agree.
I never said she was invincible.
However, how do you expect to convince me she has the *best* early game out of *all* heroes when she's limited to one spell most of the time to harass and said spell ALSO serves as her primary farming ability?


You use both shunpo and BB to harass and farm.

Shunpo almost guarantees a followup melee swing and if you understand fast pushing to lvl 2 and zoning, there's no way she can lose the lane to anyone that's not outplaying her.

Her hardest people to lane against are annie and panth (surprisingly).

annie you'll outlane till 6 then split the lane

panth you'll outlane starting lvl 2-3


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SlammerPanda

Senior Member

07-25-2010

Quote:
scarra:
You use both shunpo and BB to harass and farm.

Shunpo almost guarantees a followup melee swing and if you understand fast pushing to lvl 2 and zoning, there's no way she can lose the lane to anyone that's not outplaying her.



Quote:
zzzshamanpanda:

Shunpo? Unless you time it right when your creeps are advancing, they have none, AND that they're dumb enough to still be sticking around, then you're gonna be punished for it. If they're that dumb, then it's not really a comparison (after all, that Fiddlesticks who built an Infinity Edge isn't really a source of comparison, no?) Shunpoing in = drawing all creep aggro, and anyone with a snare or a stun can punish you severely for it.



Also:
Tell me now, how do you use BB and Shunpo to *both* harass and farm in an even matched/difficult lane?
Generally, when I'm dominating it because my lane opponent is clueless, yes I too do it easily.
But when they're playing offensive and are forcing you on the edge, you don't really have a lot of leeway. At that point, I use Shunpo to scrape up the last hits that are nearby when my swing is on cooldown that don't place me in the vicinity of the enemy and BB to get the dangerous ones.



But you say you can BOTH harass and last hit with them. Teach me oh great one.


Do you Shunpo to them and hope to god they're bad enough to just start walking away or just sit there auto-attacking?
Do you use BB to last hit, hoping that the second hit will hit the champion and that he/she will be close enough?
Or do you just spam BB at them in the hopes that it'll bounce to a creep that happens to be close enough AND is low enough to be killed by the bounce?


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Hozartis

Senior Member

07-25-2010

Quote:
VMan7:

Which is why she's only t3. If your opponent gets MR, you can no longer burst them with your combo until you get a void staff. Banshee's blocks your ult, so you better hope you also have something to pop it with or an Ashe to pop them from a distance.


It's not "just get MR." You need to be pushing at least 150+ to fully resist the combo. It's a difference between being one-shotted, to requiring about 2-3 DBs to bring down. You are still in retreat, and still contributing nothing to the team fight. A carry sporting that much MR, sacrifices damage to do so, which isn't someone Poppy should target in the first place.

As for Banshee's Veil being blocked by Diplomatic Immunity, that is a minor issue. It simply means you cannot easily initiate fights anymore. Any character with any pokes can knock off the Veil. This game is full of said characters.

If her value is only t3, but yet Veigar (!) is considered t2, I have no idea what criteria you using to gauge this tier list.


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nubpaste

Senior Member

07-25-2010

Kids shown ******ation in other threads. Post discredited.


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scarra

Senior Member

07-25-2010

Quote:
zzzshamanpanda:
Also:
Tell me now, how do you use BB and Shunpo to *both* harass and farm in an even matched/difficult lane?
Generally, when I'm dominating it because my lane opponent is clueless, yes it's possible.
But when they're playing offensive and are forcing you on the edge, you don't really have a lot of leeway. At that point, I use Shunpo to scrape up the last hits that are nearby when my swing is on cooldown that don't place me in the vicinity of the enemy and BB to get the dangerous ones.



But you say you can BOTH harass and last hit with this. Teach me oh great one.


Do you Shunpo to them and hope to god they're bad enough to just start walking away or just sit there auto-attacking?
Do you use BB to last hit, hoping that the second hit will hit the champion and that he/she will be close enough?
Or do you just spam BB at them in the hopes that it'll bounce to a creep that HAPPENS to be low enough to be killed by one and is close enough?


I just said both shunpo and bb can be used as last hitting abilities as well as harassing tools.

I wish i could just give you a random replay of any of my last 25 games in ranked, but sadly that isn't available.

With a standard build of 5 health pots + 1 fort pot, there's no way you can be out aggressed (is that a word?) in a lane if you time your shunpos following either an attack animation or a cast animation or just when you can lay pressure.

If you shunpo and then BB them, at levels 2-3 + ignite/exhaust, they will have to blow a defensive cd/summoner spell to survive. If by some god forsaken chance that they do survive, they will likely have to recall.

You can also BB ranged minions when they get close to hope for a bounce. You don't have to do this at all times but if you are already at this stage, it's most likely that you are already zoning the other hero so you can just last hit with impunity.

If you BB heroes, you are most likely in range to just melee/shunpo last hit.

In my 24~ kat games. I've been mid 22 times. I've been outlaned once because i played poorly. Split the lane very very few times (2~? even with jungle gankers coming mid). And outlaned every other opponent.


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TheAngryMunchkin

Senior Member

07-25-2010

Something to note Vman, Xin is NOT countered by exhuast or blinds. 3-talon strike hits count as "spellcasts" and therefore continue to hit through either of these debuffs. Seems like a generally correct list.