Morello what is your take on soraka bot lane.

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Hotdogs

Senior Member

02-09-2012

i hope they dont overnerf stuff


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Frejas

Junior Member

02-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Sona's more in-line, but gets a bit too much free power, especially from auras. I'm not as worried about heal amounts on either Sona or Soraka, but I am worried about tons of overlapping, deferred effects (Sona) or infinite mana healers (Soraka).
I understand, and obviously I'll have to wait until you release the details of the changes in order to have any specific feedback. However, I feel that Sona fits the concept of "offensive support" that you were pushing with the heal changes fairly well. Her healing is pretty negligible, but not completely worthless, while her ability to set up kills through harass and her ultimate gives her a much more offensive role and feel than most other common supports.

I think my bigger issue, that I don't have a good solution for, is that you're trying to get people to use other characters as supports (i.e. tanks with initiation/cc), but the 0 cs meta for supports leaves these characters too squishy to be able to be aggressive unless they're ahead in the lane. They also often overlap roles with the jungler- you generally don't need 2 characters with heavy initiation, so if you've got a jungler like Rammus or Maokai, a support Leona or Alistar might be useful for the additional CC, but they don't bring the same amount of versatility to the table as the more-common supports.

I try to use supports like Blitzcrank and Leona, and occasionally can do well with them. However, if I don't have a good early game and get ahead in the lane, these characters tend to feel significantly less useful than other supports, and less aggressive than Sona (since Sona can still harass without being completely exposed). Nerfing the currently-used supports won't really fix the issues that most of these types of characters have. They just don't generally have the survivability to do the role they're intended to do in the meta where they won't have anything more than a Philo Stone and potentially a HoG until around the end of the laning phase.


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Postal Miku

Senior Member

02-09-2012

Hey Morello, i also wouldnt mind saying that Sonas heal should never priortise Ghosts, and maybe Clones but it does, it's really fustrating when the heal dosen't go to a actual player and gets wasted


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Adumbro Deus

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02-09-2012

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Originally Posted by Amadi View Post
You mean, like Nunu/Kennen AD Bot-healing? Or Alistar/Trist, which is practically a kill lane, or at least they won't win the lane unless they pull a kill or two off. Or, I don't know, Taric used to kill people just fine with Sivir just a few seconds ago. I mean, I suppose you mean Leona/Graves or whatever, but those lanes are mostly redundant as Alistar/Taric do much of Leona's job, and do it almost as well. The heal just puts them over the top.

The main reason why Sona is popular has nothing to do with her heal, but more with the fact that it allows you to stack AoE stuns reliably, and with the fact that her harass wins lanes.

Soraka is the only support that is picked for sustain, and if I'm not mistaken, we haven't seen her a lot in tournaments lately, either.

.. Oh, and you know, tanks need gold to be able to tank midgame. Leona can do well earlygame, but when she ults into 5 guys midgame, she's just going to get mercilessly bursted down if she doesn't have enough items, and those items cost gold. Playing a 0-cs-supportlane, she's most likely to have rank 1 boots, HoG, and Philostone by then. Nevermind that she just can't risk it if she's carrying Oracles.

At least Taric/Alistar have great defensive steroids, and heck, Taric doesn't need to be nearly as suicidal as Leona, either.
Leona's w put's taric's shatter to shame, but she REALLY needs the CDR. She needs kills to happen in lane though, cause she needs to be able to afford a glacial shroud for midgame. Also, getting merc treads.


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Dragonk

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Senior Member

02-09-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Healers will be balanced to not negate all damage infinitely, yes. That design is an expectation, unfortunately, because it make the healer fun, but the cost of the game flow is simply not worth it. The direction is to at least make sure that they can clutch save people (Monsoon, Wish, Crescendo) but not have them undo non-burst damage easily.

Healing needs to be weaker than damage, over time, but can have strong bursts. Summoner Heal/Wish Baits are good examples of healthy heals, because you're not going to be topping off Graves with that, but you can save him if he almost dies - the healer feels epic, the benefactor is grateful, and the enemies can capitalize on the long cooldown/opportunity cost.

Right now, Soraka does both of these. We're going to make it so eventually, she can run out of mana and the enemy can seize the advantage. Sona's problem is actually not really her heal right now (that's about as balanced as it can be on that character).

This is the core design problem with not heal spells, but dedicated healers. If someone's only job is to heal, it will ruin the game if it's really satisfying. Instead, in most cases, support characters can heal if they can also do other things, and they're not only about red bars going up. There's still no team-based PvP game I can think of where this is not true.
OMFG Morello.... Really????????? You want more burst healing??? Wasn't this experiment a failure? There is no such thing as burst healing being good, it's toxic. The healing paradigm you created is a failure, I told this when you first announced it. Everyone saw the healing changes as a huge nerds.... they were in reality a huge buff to champions like Taric, Sona, and Soraka. The armor bonuses are far too high, the aura bonuses are far too high, and mana costs are a non-issue. You need to entirely recreated Sona, Soraka and Taric or else this trend will never end. Strong burst heals will obviously not the answer, they are just mandatory.


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SilentNightSona

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Senior Member

02-09-2012

I'm fairly certain Morello has... left the building.

At least, I mean, he's gone onto posting in different threads for the time being.

Let's post support ponies!


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Postal Miku

Senior Member

02-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterwcer View Post
I'm fairly certain Morello has... left the building.

At least, I mean, he's gone onto posting in different threads for the time being.

Let's post support ponies!
Ori is a terrible support
AP Support hybrids have to be one of Riots worst ideas ever, they dont fit in the game and i doubt they ever will


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SilentNightSona

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Senior Member

02-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HatesuneFukyu View Post
Ori is a terrible support
AP Support hybrids have to be one of Riots worst ideas ever, they dont fit in the game and i doubt they ever will
Agreed, but at my level of Elo (1000 - 1250), and with my build for her, Orianna has made a fairly decent Support/AP hybrid.

EDIT: It's also the only support pony picture I have >.<

Also, Orianna would like a slight buff to either her mana regen or speed on her Q.


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Yiyas

Junior Member

02-09-2012

First off: greetings from EU, the forgotten majority.

Started playing from ~Sona Patch
Mained Soraka/Taric for about a year; lvl 1-30.
Nerf city: population Soraka+Taric.
Played ranked with them anyway, I guess they aren't so bad. If I picked Soraka I'd win against Taric and Sona (the other nerfed children). Anything else was a loss. Aggressive lane beats Soraka hard because she can't maintain armour buff or they just switch target when you do.

Soraka lane is to secure early game by not dying but becomes increasingly impossible with characters like Blitzcrank or Maokai countering your heal and poke entirely. Please, for the love of god, make Q targetable AoE spell instead of self AoE spell. It is too aggressive to level Q because you push hard and screw up your carry's last hit timings. To make Q like this would be "quality of life" and give me the option to level it as support.

Taric lane is to try to secure early kills but becomes increasingly impossible with mana issues versus Sivir/Tristana/Ezreal/Vayne dash+shield. Nobody levels heal on Taric. Remake that useless passive and give him a real base mana regeneration.

Janna is now my new main, the ranged AoE knockup, slow, AD steroid and Teamfight canceller are simply far superior early, mid and lategame. I'm happy that I can cancel 3 man ganks. Shield every 6 seconds with that gorgeous +50 damage and worthwhile AP scaling. I can roll into the middle of a teamfight and split tanks from squishies. I don't care if I can't heal my ally; I'm good enough to prevent the damage entirely anyway. Is that me getting better at the game, or simply Janna having better reward for effort?

So yeah, say hi to EU some time. We actually play and enjoy support. We also miss Ezreal's heal and want him to be hybrid.

Also, "Trynadmere nerf": that -3 damage/.
You did a good job destroying Vayne so I never have to see her though, thanks.


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trollasaurus92

Senior Member

02-09-2012

why so serious morello?