PROOF: This is why Stark's was so good...

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cocacolalips

Senior Member

03-19-2012

To be honest, it's a problem with the community overall and Riot doesn't help either.

There's a stigma around where you would believe that the support role = auras.

But it's not true, and never was and never will.
Anyone can buy aura's items. Anyone.
It's not the support Job to buy Aura's items. It does not benefit the support more than anyone else. And a support like any other champion would rather spend his gold to improve his own spells so he can support better.

It's even more stupid as the support will most of the time be one of the main targets and will most likely die and lose his team the auras. How ironic.

Heck, a perfect example would be Will of the Ancients, this item has a spellvamp aura, but it only caters for casters and mages and while they're the ones to buy it, the aura benefits the entire team.

It's perfectly fine to allow Supports to get those precious aura's items, but it shouldn't be as forced as it is now.


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Kamai

Senior Member

03-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryllau Ellemayne View Post
Not trying to ***** or complain but I would love to hear a Truly legitimate reason as to why they thought AD's didn't carry Starks and how Zeke's is even CLOSE to a "Replacement."
Let me try. AD carries rarely build Wit's end or Ionic Spark as an Attack speed/survivability item, even though they do well as cost per stat items. Both items slow them down on becoming late game attackers (and why on-hit builds can't effectively take their spot). As a personal sense, Stark's would be an AS/survivability item, with minimal damage (though the armor reduction aura). It's the same reason that black cleaver is a very niche item.

At the same time, most bruisers that take Stark's lose out on survivability. It's an amazing stat per gold item, but Aegis also is, and that's usually not taken by the bruiser, instead going to a tank or support. I think that it just doesn't end up slot efficient for either of these classes.

This leaves the Tank and the support. A tank might be able to slot this item in, but they (usually) don't have autoattacks to take advantage, and it gives them basically no survivability, which makes initiates tougher. On the other hand, a support has the slots for this, but look at what it built from, Recurve Bow+emblem of valor (rejuvenation + Vampiric Secpter) + 700 gold = 2550 gold and dead end items if they have to abandon it. Only Sona and Taric of the traditional supports get much out of autoattacking, giving them nearly dead stats. This made it a really tough buy on supports, but still had value as a niche pick. It was an amazing item that was incredibly difficult to place on a team.

As far as making the case of Zeke's being a replacement, first off, the components are a bit kinder for supports, using a Kindlegem, which can be thrown into Shurelia's for Philostone users if the situation changes. Losing the 20 armor reduction is a real pain. At the same time, bruisers (especially triforce bruisers and Riven) might actually appreciate the health/CDR built into it as well as the lifesteal and health regen/5. I'm having a lot of trouble imaging that 15hp/5 was a better bruiser stat than 250hp.

TL;DR Stark's wasn't selfish enough to place it on an AD carry or bruiser, and was rather hard for a tank/support to fit into a build. Zeke's made it more friendly to build, unfortunately cutting some of the stuff out of it.

I'd love to try to actually discuss this, and understand that I might be just missing something.


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Tyr Howl

Senior Member

03-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamai View Post
I'd love to try to actually discuss this, and understand that I might be just missing something.
I built Stark's ON ALL my AD Champs, and made my item build around it and figured how it would work best.

The IDEA is to Benefit from some AS, and at the time the most flat 20% LS, and make it Benefit your Whole Team. Since depending on the Champ you Play, AS should maybe be One item, Stark's fit Perfectly into that ONE item.

Yes there are better AS Items but I would rather have My already 1.9 AS Range AD Champ Teammate to get 20% more AS and LS so that she can do even more damage Faster, let alone with 5v5 team fights, your Whole Team gets a Bonus to AS and LS

When you Though of or You DID BUILD STARK's, your thought process was think of your teammates first before your self. Yeah you can survive 1v2 but you started out with 2v2 If you can help out your teammates with an Offensive Buff it makes Your Team harder to kill and then they have to 3v2 or 4v2 you and another teammate.


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Tyr Howl

Senior Member

03-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenThunda View Post
Zekes is bad, but old starks was also bad.

Tanky DPS didn't need it a.

Tell me how many times was starks built in tournament play? oh thats right.... never
All My AD Champs had it, Tanky DPS yeah with how you build it sure, but When I built it and with my other items, I killed more Tanky DPS with it, and Zeke's is Worse then Stark's.

Zeke Herald
+250 Health
UNIQUE Passive: +15% Cooldown Reduction
UNIQUE Aura: Grants nearby allied champions 12% Life Steal and 20% Attack Speed.

- Stark's Fervor -
+20% Attack Speed
UNIQUE Aura: Grants nearby allied champions
20% Life Steal, 20% Attack Speed, and 30 Health Regen per 5 seconds.
Reduces the Armor of nearby enemy champions by 20.

Here's your Proof, I dont need 250 Hp, I have other items that Provide more and do other things as well, the HP regen is more what I need

More LifeSteal and 8% is a big Difference

Double the AS is more Important the CDR, I wouldnt even consider CDR on any AD Champ, the only one I can think of is Riven, and even then I wouldnt even probably buy CDR because most CDR items dont provide alot in one area(other then CDR)

I'm ignoring the 20 reduced Armour, because I consider that a bonus, because I know most other AD champs other then Tanks dont buy Armor


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bahamutkaiser

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Senior Member

03-19-2012

Starks was never a carry choice anyway, it was a tanky DPS item. You grant your carry massive lifesteal, some speed and armor pen, your whole team twice as much HP regen than LotIS, and great AS for yourself, the idea that it wasnt good because some gold calculator doesnt acknowledge the word aura is ridiculous, and pretending like it was anything but a nerf, when the lifesteal was nearly shaved in half, the personal AS was halfed, and the regen was split onto another item, AND CUT IN HALF, is just obnoxious denial.

It basically comes out to be a sideways nerf and eliminates the value of the aura on tanky DPS, where it belonged. I'll be the first to admit there was some sleeper OP stats there, even if they wanna play the, "nobody used it" line (which honestly goes to their discredit at acknowledging non-meta gameplay), and they hate auras as a whole, they all got major nerfs over time and Starks was way overdue. But ripping the item in half and than further altering it by swapping out offensive use for support/defensive use was just trash.

If it was too hard for supports to build than they could have altered emblem to have a vampiric Scepter and dagger, remove the regen, and add another dagger for aura AS and armor pen.

A Starks with 15% lifesteal aura, 20 Apen aura, 20 AS aura and 20 self only AS would have worked, and been infinitely cheaper. What they did was butcher the stats, add a bunch of defensive stats, and made it barely any cheaper even though the offensive stats are trash because your playing for a bunch of defensive stats. It makes it impossible to afford on anything but a support now since the defensive stats make it hard to afford, and the very few AS hybrid supports would rather get Gunblade half the time since they get use from AP and Spell vamp. Nidalee and Kayle don't want it, and Taric is taking one for the team, wile every tanky DPS absolutely has to pass this up for BT or wriggles.

PS. Lifesteal and health don't synergized, you'd rather have armor so you take less damage and what you do recover increases a greater part of your health pool rather than taking more damage and restoring a smaller part of your overall health pool, putting health on Zeke instead of armor was a direct attempt to screw It's value.


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Xephelim

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Senior Member

03-19-2012

starks was clearly better zekes is soo subpar i barely see it anywhere hell or any time at all


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Khristophoros

The Council

03-19-2012

bump bump

So tired of Zeke's.

There's nothing more to say really. Stark's was a million times better and it's really obvious at this point.


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Tyr Howl

Senior Member

03-19-2012

Found this, it Should be Zeke's Artwork, Not Stark's Artwork


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Buru Diman

Senior Member

03-19-2012

Zeke's Herald is quite core on my Warwick and Volibear builds. Starks was cool but mainly for the armor pen.
Your fault people for not buying it enough when it existed. I bet you would cry about Haunting Guise too if they removed it.


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Khristophoros

The Council

03-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buru Diman View Post
Zeke's Herald is quite core on my Warwick and Volibear builds. Starks was cool but mainly for the armor pen.
Your fault people for not buying it enough when it existed. I bet you would cry about Haunting Guise too if they removed it.
Not really tbh.

And I did buy Stark's really often before.