PROOF: This is why Stark's was so good...

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HonomonMan

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Senior Member

02-10-2012

i used to always build old starks now i never build it


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Orion69

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Senior Member

02-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CountNoob View Post
You said in a previous post that most brusiers at button smashers that is true for the most part except gangplank button smashing is supporting his team other than that his damage comes for Q and AAs. Starks benefited with support skills of his skill set as well as his sustain. Where is GP gonna get his sustain oranges, by spamming q? No you gotta get up close and start AA the carry for lifesteal. Your right about Gangplank needing a cheap substain item which was wriggles but lategame the wriggles can be sold for Starks since the passive proc from wriggles won't help against champions, while old Starks gave everything better for Gangplank and his team as well. Gangplank doesn't do the most damage on the team his carries do its not better to support the team to benefit everything about his kit?.

During late game Gangplank, just initiates and attacks the enemy carries forcing the carries's teammates to help out letting my team's carries do damage more safely. Gangplank won't live through long enough to give that time if he doesn't have sustain from AAs, and the enemy carry can get away if he doesn't make sure the enemy can't get away which is why some GPs build Frozen Mallets and some build Triforce.

If the above didn't make sense then its this, what would be better replacing wriggles late game on Gangplank Triforce, Starks, or PD?
Starks and PD would give enough speed to secure that gangplank passive would stack. Triforce gives more damage
Starks give substain to entire team its like WOTA.
PD, Triforce give critchance and moving speed. Movement speed is not needed since E is fast enough to catch enemy carries during a fight maybe not against an ashe or boarlady.
Lategame Gangplank=not most damage, his AP and Range carry=most damage, why build more damage on Gangplank when you can do ok enough damage to force the enemy to focus you teh TANKY champion, not a tank who does no damage and people ignore you but someone who does OK damage making them force to target you or target your carries but by then the carries that Gangplank attacked would be dead or did not do damage letting Gangplank's team carries to be alive and mop up.
GP isn't a spammer, except his ~2CD Q. With Q and AA, you will have them perma slowed already. I don't build critplank, but the crits on his Q when happens destroy. I also don't build PD on GP because he isn't there for his AA (except the debuff). However, he still does strong damage and low CD on his Q makes triforce optimal. When you get rid of wriggles, buff his damage. You already have decent defenses with most of his build and a ton of HP. So, what do you replace wriggles with? BT. Imo, it's more straight up damage, as well as more burst damage, as well as lets you actually kill people. You give enough support with GP just by having skills. You soak a lot of damage and you can sustain long enough to last through a fight. Honestly, I believe Triforce should be core part of GP's build... just depends when to get it. It shouldn't be replacing a lifesteal item. You should replace that LS with a different LS. But one that gives AS isn't the right one. One that gives Damage is.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyr Howl View Post
We can't show you with "Math" because you are asking for 5 different item builds for 5 different random champions, and Two or Three of those builds would or might have Stark's.

And depending on Opponents, yeah Stark's might not be the greatest help versus One or even Two Champions and their builds. But As a 5 on 5 Team fight straight down the middle nothing else involved, Stark's makes the difference for the Whole team.

The reason you are saying that "No High ELO player builds it" is because most high elo players surrender at 20 mins when things get minorly tough, Probably have item builds that everyone else use and dont change them to fit the situation/ their opponents. And Most Importantly believes that Champion Kills determine the winner of matches, Which I can prove is wrong
Like someone else said... your last paragraph is complete BS. High ELO players rarely surrender, because they know how/when to push. 1 tip of advantage in a High ELO game (5v4 (cuz someone died in a skirmish), the losing team can push to win, or secure BAron and use it. Only time I've seen any high elo surrender is when they two nexus turrets are down and nobody rezzing for 10+ seconds... then they'll do a surrender just for the slight chance it might end quicker. Then again, you sometimes see the winning team do a troll surrender as they take down the enemies nexus just for giggles (but sometimes do it just a hair too early).

Also, in your post, you just said why it got remade. 5 random champs with 5 different builds, maybe 1 or 2 builds use it. Out of 92 or so champs, that's not a lot. Thus it wasn't used often enough and Riot just assumed that it would be better on a support. I could really care less if it was in, as it didn't affect my gameplay, but all these people NOW proclaiming it was the best item since Innervating Locket (at least sounds that way) are just being ridiculous.


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Johan Liebert

Senior Member

02-10-2012

yup i really loved starks on my ad carry when i was underfarmed and couldnt afford a blood thirster and a PD.


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CountNoob

Senior Member

02-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion69 View Post
GP isn't a spammer, except his ~2CD Q. With Q and AA, you will have them perma slowed already. I don't build critplank, but the crits on his Q when happens destroy. I also don't build PD on GP because he isn't there for his AA (except the debuff). However, he still does strong damage and low CD on his Q makes triforce optimal. When you get rid of wriggles, buff his damage. You already have decent defenses with most of his build and a ton of HP. So, what do you replace wriggles with? BT. Imo, it's more straight up damage, as well as more burst damage, as well as lets you actually kill people. You give enough support with GP just by having skills. You soak a lot of damage and you can sustain long enough to last through a fight. Honestly, I believe Triforce should be core part of GP's build... just depends when to get it. It shouldn't be replacing a lifesteal item. You should replace that LS with a different LS. But one that gives AS isn't the right one. One that gives Damage is.







Like someone else said... your last paragraph is complete BS. High ELO players rarely surrender, because they know how/when to push. 1 tip of advantage in a High ELO game (5v4 (cuz someone died in a skirmish), the losing team can push to win, or secure BAron and use it. Only time I've seen any high elo surrender is when they two nexus turrets are down and nobody rezzing for 10+ seconds... then they'll do a surrender just for the slight chance it might end quicker. Then again, you sometimes see the winning team do a troll surrender as they take down the enemies nexus just for giggles (but sometimes do it just a hair too early).

Also, in your post, you just said why it got remade. 5 random champs with 5 different builds, maybe 1 or 2 builds use it. Out of 92 or so champs, that's not a lot. Thus it wasn't used often enough and Riot just assumed that it would be better on a support. I could really care less if it was in, as it didn't affect my gameplay, but all these people NOW proclaiming it was the best item since Innervating Locket (at least sounds that way) are just being ridiculous.
Also you just contradicted your post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion69 View Post
Duo starks Aura would be interesting to see. But I don't think ur getting what the other guy is dishing. Basically, he isn't saying go all damage. He is saying go tanky damage. Which is what tanky DPS is, except on a few champs that refuse to die (i.e. Shyv/Trynd). If you go riven, you're not AA that much, ur using your skills. Same with Irelia, GP, etc. These aren't AS champs. YOu build damage and Tank items. Ofc, there will be some lifesteal in there (maybe a wriggles or BT late game instead of wriggles), but its simply for sustain. You'll be nearly as strong as a tank, with avg DPS and the ability to use ur skills. Because most bruisers are button mashers, not right clickers. Right clickers (usually ur ranged AD) will benefit from this Aura, but it's not nearly as damaging as other items to carry with.
So apparently in your eyes Gangplank is a spammer that only spams Q and AA.
Also what do you mean by "I don't build critplank, but the crits on his Q when happens destroy"

and

I wrote a length post about my item build on gangplank on page 12 at the top, explaining the alternatives to starks which provides damage and substain. But not an item that provides damage substain and support at the same time.

What would your 6 items be late game on gangplank?
What would be better than Boots, atmas, warmogs, fon, bt, starks?

More damage? What item? Why not i just build IEs and BTs why do ad range go for PD for the crit chance and not the attack speed? Attack speed and physical damage is a big part of Gangplank's DPS, im just using Gangplank's passive as a good reason why his passive works with Attack speed, im pretty sure i mention that his AA and Q is his only damage late game in my post on page 12.

The build on all atmogplanks is boots wriggle, atmogs afterwards its based mostly on team comp and prefrence and FON is a must in there afterwards.
Which leads to 2 free inventory slots that can go there after selling wriggles.
And by my opinion its BT+Starks for the damage and extra support and sustain.
BT+PD would be the same except less sustain or more depends on critchance from atmas and PD but less sustain and support for the team.


BTW his Q does little damage late game even with a triforce its only 1 small burst and then the rest is little unless you build for critplank and have armorpen item(LW) since critplanks go for critchance runes for the early game advantage.


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Orion69

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Senior Member

02-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CountNoob View Post
Also you just contradicted your post:


So apparently in your eyes Gangplank is a spammer that only spams Q and AA.
Also what do you mean by "I don't build critplank, but the crits on his Q when happens destroy"

and

I wrote a length post about my item build on gangplank on page 12 at the top, explaining the alternatives to starks which provides damage and substain. But not an item that provides damage substain and support at the same time.

What would your 6 items be late game on gangplank?
What would be better than Boots, atmas, warmogs, fon, bt, starks?

More damage? What item? Why not i just build IEs and BTs why do ad range go for PD for the crit chance and not the attack speed? Attack speed and physical damage is a big part of Gangplank's DPS, im just using Gangplank's passive as a good reason why his passive works with Attack speed, im pretty sure i mention that his AA and Q is his only damage late game in my post on page 12.

The build on all atmogplanks is boots wriggle, atmogs afterwards its based mostly on team comp and prefrence and FON is a must in there afterwards.
Which leads to 2 free inventory slots that can go there after selling wriggles.
And by my opinion its BT+Starks for the damage and extra support and sustain.
BT+PD would be the same except less sustain or more depends on critchance from atmas and PD but less sustain and support for the team.


BTW his Q does little damage late game even with a triforce its only 1 small burst and then the rest is little unless you build for critplank and have armorpen item(LW) since critplanks go for critchance runes for the early game advantage.
GP isn't a spammer, but his Q should be used on CD typically (since it's basically spammable). His AA keeps them slowed without needing xtra AS to keep them in range. I say I don't build Critplank, however, with items (typically a triforce/atma's), his crits do tons of damage. Builds change depending on how well you're doing... how well ur team is doing. What is needed, etc. If I need to carry a team harder I will sometimes build and IE soon. But that isn't my common build.

Usually I'll have similar to what you put as the build, except I'll have Triforce > Starks. He benefits from every single stat on Triforce as well as the proc. Can't say the same for starks. If we need more defense, I may turn that into a Frozen Heart or other tanky type item. If I have Triforce and FoN, I will occasionally sell boots for another item. Just really depends how fed I am or how long the game is.

I'd like to know what boots you get on him. Since you favor Stark's so much, do you get Berserker's? Or do you go Lucidity/Mercs? Why do all the advocates for Stark's assume everyone is planning on getting a PD instead? We choose no stark's for a reason... getting AS isn't that reason. While PD ups ur crit, thats the AD carries job.

And his Q doing little damage? It's where most of his damage comes from (and AA). But every 2seconds or so, you should be hitting that Q, cuz that is where the damage is at. With triforce, it just makes that damage even more.

GP sticks on carries. Carries are squishies. You don't see them stacking Armor typically (if they plan on doing damage), thus, you can still take tons of HP from a squish (up to 50% on a crit Triforce Q) without getting LW.

And top laners are still skill spammers. I don't care if it's one skill or 4, if you are hitting it on every CD of Triforce, it's typically a better item (granted not on every skill spam top laner).


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Juke For Jesus

Senior Member

02-11-2012

Quote:
I'd like to know what boots you get on him. Since you favor Stark's so much, do you get Berserker's? Or do you go Lucidity/Mercs? Why do all the advocates for Stark's assume everyone is planning on getting a PD instead? We choose no stark's for a reason... getting AS isn't that reason. While PD ups ur crit, thats the AD carries job.
Because this is what Phreak said to do. He said, "Those that bought Stark's are better off with a Vampiric Scepter and a Phantom Dancer." Hold on I'll find the quote.

And here it is:

Originally posted by Phreak:
Quote:
He's better off finishing that Zeal or Phantom Dancer, grabbing just the Vampiric Scepter, and building other, better damage items.
Also, I completely agree with the post after me. +1


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daBigLOL

Senior Member

02-11-2012

people are comparing high end teir items that dont suppot the team to starks... that is not a fair analysis. starks is cheaper than many of thr items ppl mention and it helps your team. you dont get aiegis because it is item slot effective, you get it because it offers you team stats that they miht not be able to itmize and are useful to you self. u wont get starks if you have only one auto atker that is stupid. u get it when u have 3 lik ad carry gp tryn and nocturne. seriously , ppl need to stop assuming us stark lovers build it whenever we can


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Juke For Jesus

Senior Member

02-11-2012

^


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CountNoob

Senior Member

02-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion69 View Post
GP isn't a spammer, but his Q should be used on CD typically (since it's basically spammable). His AA keeps them slowed without needing xtra AS to keep them in range. I say I don't build Critplank, however, with items (typically a triforce/atma's), his crits do tons of damage. Builds change depending on how well you're doing... how well ur team is doing. What is needed, etc. If I need to carry a team harder I will sometimes build and IE soon. But that isn't my common build.

Usually I'll have similar to what you put as the build, except I'll have Triforce > Starks. He benefits from every single stat on Triforce as well as the proc. Can't say the same for starks. If we need more defense, I may turn that into a Frozen Heart or other tanky type item. If I have Triforce and FoN, I will occasionally sell boots for another item. Just really depends how fed I am or how long the game is.

I'd like to know what boots you get on him. Since you favor Stark's so much, do you get Berserker's? Or do you go Lucidity/Mercs? Why do all the advocates for Stark's assume everyone is planning on getting a PD instead? We choose no stark's for a reason... getting AS isn't that reason. While PD ups ur crit, thats the AD carries job.

And his Q doing little damage? It's where most of his damage comes from (and AA). But every 2seconds or so, you should be hitting that Q, cuz that is where the damage is at. With triforce, it just makes that damage even more.

GP sticks on carries. Carries are squishies. You don't see them stacking Armor typically (if they plan on doing damage), thus, you can still take tons of HP from a squish (up to 50% on a crit Triforce Q) without getting LW.

And top laners are still skill spammers. I don't care if it's one skill or 4, if you are hitting it on every CD of Triforce, it's typically a better item (granted not on every skill spam top laner).
Let see Starks give substain to gangplank and his time but it benifits the most on Gangplank and his Ad range carry.
While Triforce gives a slow which can be done like you said without starks but without attack speed gangplank's damage would come from his Q, since triforce benefits Gangplank by giving attack speed, crit, 250 health, 5 ad from atmas and a stronger Q Why would u go more damage you won't be doing the most damage at all, your carries do. Why do tanky dps initiate? What does a tanky dps do?

Well from
http://realelohell.wordpress.com/articles/ site with articles written by high elo player

article 9 edit: it wasn't 7

It is not the job of the ranged dps to try to focus a particular target – the ranged dps’ job is to deal as much damage as possible for as long as possible. This requires excellent positioning (to stay relatively safe) as well as good support/tank players.
It is not the job of the tank to chase after some fed member of the other team – the tank’s job is to keep the enemy from focusing your damage dealer (ranged dps/ap carry). Some tanks can also initiate fights, but they should focus on protecting their damage dealers immediately after.
Support champions should be positioned in the safest possible location in the team fight while still being able to support the damage dealers.
AP carry positioning is champion dependent – they can initiate fights, assassinate members of the opposing team, or support. Since AP carries are reliant on their spells and (usually) burst damage, they should be looking to maximize the use of their full combo, then get to relative safety and wait for their cooldowns to refresh and then (ideally) get back into the fight.
Tanky DPS or Melee DPS type champions can fulfill many roles, but ideally they should initiate fights, do clean up (come in after the fight starts and finish off whoever is low) or chase after certain enemies. If someone on the other team needs to be focused, it is the tanky dps or melee dps’ job to focus them when the fight starts.


Gangplank does these three roles except staying in the safest possible location in team fights but support the damage dealers, if someone on the other team needs to be forced, it is the tanky dps job to focus them, to intaite fights and to protect carries
Theres no need to build more damage after having atmogs +BT its more of supporting the team and Starks gave a little more damage from attack speed while giving sustain to everyone(since mages have AA too, and why do some of them go Wota? For the sustain and aura for the team. Same for starks for the team)

Also its not always getting Starks, its situational but if you have an strong range carry, ad jungler, and/or solotop(since Supportplank grabs starks also its a core by Dyrus since i don't know much about supports D: i follow his build a little) its better to help them instead of doing more damage.


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Juke For Jesus

Senior Member

02-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CountNoob View Post
Let see Starks give substain to gangplank and his time but it benifits the most on Gangplank and his Ad range carry.
While Triforce gives a slow which can be done like you said without starks but without attack speed gangplank's damage would come from his Q, since triforce benefits Gangplank by giving attack speed, crit, 250 health, 5 ad from atmas and a stronger Q Why would u go more damage you won't be doing the most damage at all, your carries do. Why do tanky dps initiate? What does a tanky dps do?

Well from
http://realelohell.wordpress.com/articles/ site with articles written by high elo player

article 9 edit: it wasn't 7

It is not the job of the ranged dps to try to focus a particular target – the ranged dps’ job is to deal as much damage as possible for as long as possible. This requires excellent positioning (to stay relatively safe) as well as good support/tank players.
It is not the job of the tank to chase after some fed member of the other team – the tank’s job is to keep the enemy from focusing your damage dealer (ranged dps/ap carry). Some tanks can also initiate fights, but they should focus on protecting their damage dealers immediately after.
Support champions should be positioned in the safest possible location in the team fight while still being able to support the damage dealers.
AP carry positioning is champion dependent – they can initiate fights, assassinate members of the opposing team, or support. Since AP carries are reliant on their spells and (usually) burst damage, they should be looking to maximize the use of their full combo, then get to relative safety and wait for their cooldowns to refresh and then (ideally) get back into the fight.
Tanky DPS or Melee DPS type champions can fulfill many roles, but ideally they should initiate fights, do clean up (come in after the fight starts and finish off whoever is low) or chase after certain enemies. If someone on the other team needs to be focused, it is the tanky dps or melee dps’ job to focus them when the fight starts.


Gangplank does these three roles except staying in the safest possible location in team fights but support the damage dealers, if someone on the other team needs to be forced, it is the tanky dps job to focus them, to intaite fights and to protect carries
Theres no need to build more damage after having atmogs +BT its more of supporting the team and Starks gave a little more damage from attack speed while giving sustain to everyone(since mages have AA too, and why do some of them go Wota? For the sustain and aura for the team. Same for starks for the team)

Also its not always getting Starks, its situational but if you have an strong range carry, ad jungler, and/or solotop(since Supportplank grabs starks also its a core by Dyrus since i don't know much about supports D: i follow his build a little) its better to help them instead of doing more damage.
Yes indeed. That's why as a tanky DPS you focus on building tanky/sustain first. Again. Check the build in my OP. This IMO is the optimal build (give or take enemy team items/comp) for a tanky DPS who's job is to go after the carries.