Veiger Fix

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Razzle Dazzle

Adjudicator

07-26-2009

uhh... ive gotten plenty of AP with him... at least 250 every tiem I played him! but I still couldint own enough with him! tanks would just run up and beat me! I couldint even match Ryze, when i'm a anti caster champion!
this remake sounds great!


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Desit

Senior Member

07-26-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by pandamine View Post

Proposed change
Swap the mechanics of his passive and the side effect Q so it works like this
Q skill
Every time you cast Q skill on an enemy champion, you steal AP for an X amount of time (can even by something high like 15 AP on level 5)
Passive
Every time you kill a creep, you get 0.5AP, and for a champion you get 3 AP
Nice idea, thought about the same myself. The ap steal by attacking seems kinda odd for a champion who rely on his spells mostly, he is really weak so you don't want to auto attack ppl in a group fight and draw attention.

I've also wondered if the passive works at all? I've never seem my ap increase when i attack ppl, or does this only work on champions?

About the q skill, it would be cool if it was an ap steal nuke. Like saying you steal 50 ap from the target for 15 seconds/ you steal x % of the targets ap for 15 seconds [only one buff at time]?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paxad View Post
I disagree, I've played a few games with him since reading this post and have boosted his ap past 200 each time. It takes timing with his nuke, and I bought the philosopher's stone to start off. His ultimate is ridiculous when you get his ap high.
U mean with the q skill alone, or with items? It's realy easy to get 250 -300 ap with this hero, he is a farm machine and got the most awesome nuke ever (dark matter hits for 600 - 800 due to huge ap bonus)

Though about ryze, i've got an issue with him. How the hell can ryze get 501 ap power?!


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pandamine

Adjudicator

07-27-2009

The problem is he never gets that 400+ AP in any average game (I have not seen it once) because he never gets to that stage since his nukes are so weak without that AP scaling in the first place!!!


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Kimmy Gibler

Senior Member

07-27-2009

@NoNamedWords

I meant in addition to items, it's simple. As other people have said, the micromanagement of timing his Q just to boost up the AP is the annoying part. Especially since I don't want to waste my mana early to harass the enemies.

Ryze can get 500+ AP? What the heck? Sounds like the game went on way too long.

I really like the Passive change that's proposed.


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Sephiroth

Member

07-27-2009

I guess I'm on the opposite end of this spectrum. I've played a lot of games as tiny evil and only had a problem building up a huge ap amount once, which was due to my team not doing well and my being unable to keep up with enemy champions because of it. I also like the Q skill just as it is. It's noticably less powerful than other similar nukes (annie's disintegrate and ryze's Q skill come to mind), but it creates an interesting choice for the player. Do I try to nuke champions down with it, or use it on creeps to gain ap? Do I try to kill a champion with my R skill for the mana return or the Q skill for the 5 ap?

My general strategy with him is to get a meki pendant early for mp5, and try to kill creeps with the q skill whenever possible, obviously getting it first. Then I level my Q skill whenever I can to make it easier to kill creeps with it, as well as to make it a nuke strong enough to really have an impact. I generally get one point in his aoe stun-prison early, and then put the rest into meteor, though either the prison or meteor could be leveled first depending on matchups, etc.

Tiny evil really shines when you get 3-4 points in meteor and a respectable amount of ap, say 60. By this point you should be able to take out 3+ creeps at a time with a meteor, and any that don't die immediately are easy pickings for an attack kill or Q kill. I usually make a philosopher's stone ASAP to be able to stay in my lane and basically continually cast Q for AP. After that comes boots to sorcerers/swiftness (usually sorcerers) and then the +70 ap and +10 ap per hero kill item. This allows me to potentially gain 15 AP from killing a hero with a Q. I've also seens an early tears of the goddess to shear build work very well, and shear is certainly an item to prioritize since it works very well on tiny.

Typically by the time I reach level 18 in a game with tiny evil I'm at approximately 250-300 ap and have gotten some cd reducing items to allow me to cast Q every 3-3.5 seconds, meteor every 10 seconds, the aoe prison-stun every 15 seconds, and the R ultimate every 60 seconds (these are just my rough guesses from memory, but it works out to something like that). At this point evil can stop pushes cold with meteor, chase down heroes well with his prison, and against any champion with a significant mp base simply cast a prison-attempted meteor-R cast-Q cast for the kill. Or do a Q rundown, which is running next to the hero you're trying to kill and only stopping to do quick casts of Q, and prison when it's up. I generally do around 10-1 with this strategy, with one notable time having me go 14-0 with some assists as well.

ASIDE FROM THAT MASSIVE BLOCK O'TEXT: I like the passive as it is. it can be useful when laning early to give an extra jolt to your spells, and reduce their spell power. One thing to note when using it is it will only have an effect on champions, and only champions with some ability power. Also if you hit a champion with 2 AP for example you should only get 2 ap yourself, and that champion loses his 2 ap. Putting the AP leach on the Q spell would incentivize people to cast it on champions too much for my liking, and try to last hit creeps with normal attacks which is generally much more diffficult (attack is slower to arrive and weaker than a Q spell). My only real advice is to not worry about getting a fat stack of ap boosts before casting your spells, and just cast and attack normally. I'd compare waiting for a lot of stacks pre-cast to an ashe that always waits 15 seconds between attacks to make sure her crit chance is maxed for her next attack, it's just not the best way to go about it.

Anyway that's all I have to say about tiny evil (for now), he's definitely one of my favorite champions and also one of the ones I hate seeing on the other team the most! Thanks for taking the time to read this extra-long post, and I'll see you in the beta!


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Lifeform

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Senior Member

07-28-2009

I think it's funny that people are complaining that this ability's AP gain is too weak, but I've had 3 games as Veigar where I *****d his Q like crazy and ended up with literally 700+ AP. It seems to be pretty powerful to me:P I will give you that his steal AP on autoattack is weak, though.


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Screwdriver

Senior Member

07-29-2009

I'll definitely agree with the last two posts. Maybe I'm playing against the wrong people, but whenever the teams have been decent, I can get above 400 easily, with probably at least 20 after just starting with a meki, and then sitting in a lane for a little while with a philosopher's stone can easily get you to 50ap gain. Personally, I love to stack cd reduction, so I can eventually cast it every 2.4 seconds (methinks that's the reduction cap...), which just means that any creep that isn't killed by dark matter is hit with Q.

I will agree that the passive needs a change though, as the only time I tend to use a normal attack is when lich bane is boosting it to be almost it's own nuke. Since I enjoy the current Q, I'm sure if I'm for or against the proposed passive, since as it's been stated I think the passive would be far too rediculous. Currently when you get high enough you can one shot an entire wave of creeps or an entire group of the weaker neutrals (casting dark matter than walking away is super fun when you see the little xp +'s randomly appearing), and I'll admit to liking defense. Assume that just by normal farming its around mid game and I'm over 300ap with a lvl4 dark matter, I'd have to play again to be sure, but that's at least the back row of casters in one shot (lich bane would mean you'd get one of the melees quick too), so 2ap from the one cast. Not too bad. The problem is when there's a horde of creeps at the tower (let's say around 20 of them), you cast it once, and you have 10 more ap. That'd be rather fun to be sure, but far too rediculous. Veigar would spiral and instead of getting 1k ap in a truly ridiculous match (it only takes around three of the 25% ap rings lol), he'd probably be able to get beyond 2k. At 1k the ult is above a 1500 damage nuke (+the 25% max mana, and frankly if someone has a tear of the goddess they have some mana, I've seen well over 5k mana with an archangel's and rod of the ages), then if you have a lich bane that (at 1k) gives something near double damage for the Q, as well as giving a nice damage boost after a cage.

In the same vein though, making it too low would mean it would take forever to get the ball rolling (as can be the prob now if you're not spamming the Q on creeps early on), but I think that may be more fixable than giving a char truly ridiculous ap gain.


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pandamine

Adjudicator

07-29-2009

The only time I have seen Veiger get 50+ on his AP skill is when a Soraka is in his lane and giving him unlimited mana. I don't know the games you guys are talking about, but I would argue that in such a situation you would have done just as well with any mage

Having to rely on your Q skill to last kill an enemy champion to get any decent amount of AP or getting a soraka pick is silly


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Teirdome

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Senior Member

07-29-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by pandamine View Post
The only time I have seen Veiger get 50+ on his AP skill is when a Soraka is in his lane and giving him unlimited mana. I don't know the games you guys are talking about, but I would argue that in such a situation you would have done just as well with any mage

Having to rely on your Q skill to last kill an enemy champion to get any decent amount of AP or getting a soraka pick is silly
Really? How many Veigar (please note the spelling) games have you seen? I've easily gotten nearly that much in the last few minutes when you have a 2.4 sec cooldown that one-shots most creeps.

If we change to your suggested skills, nobody is going to bother with the Q skill. Veigar may need a little bit of tweaking, but in current form he's very active and demonstrates one of the great things of LoL, you can spam spells right from the beginning. Changing his abilities to the suggested just means that you will sit there playing like every other caster, ranged last-hitting creeps and occasionally dropping your AoE on people's heads.

The better change would be to increase the AP from last-hitting with Q to 1/1.5/2/2/2.5 or something similar before drastically changing him. Another option would be to increase the AP scaling on Q.


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pandamine

Adjudicator

07-29-2009

Dude do the math

In order get, lets say 100 AP from his Q skill, you need to get 100 creep kills OFF HIS Q SKILL

His Q skill has a 5 second cooldown, so thats 500 seconds i.e. 8 and a 1/3 minutes of continous use of Q skill to kill creeps and a mana cost of 40000

Now realistically, you would not be casting Q to kill a creep every 5 seconds in the game. You have lane traversal, team battles, movement between map positions etc etc to take into account

It also costs a massive 40000 mana, a mana cost of 80 per 5 seconds means that that you need 16 mana regen per second just to support his Q skill continously casting

If you guys are getting high AP off Veiger, its actually an illusion. It means that you have already purchased a lot of AP items and thus have high AP from that, or you managed to get a lot of kills with his Q skill or you have a Soraka in a lane and have been farming for 20+ minutes continuously in the game

I have seen many and many and many games with veiger