Attack Damage Runes or Armor Pen?

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RustedCorpse

Junior Member

01-31-2012

I recently posted a similar question but wanted to get clarification if possible. I've been told that Graves should go attack damage because he scales off of attack damage.

Previously with Garen I had stacked armor penetration runes as I had read in multiple locations that it's more beneficial to do so.

How can I tell the difference? I understand with someone obvious like Riven, why I would stack attack damage (because it scales with her shield) however how does graves abilities stack with damage more than Armor pen?


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Mathematically, you will do more damage early game with armor pen runes even when getting a perfect buckshot off...as long as you do not have an excess of armor pen. However, armor pen doesn't help you last hit and they become less effective once get your Last Whisper. And Graves is definitely an AD ranged Carry that benefits from Last Whisper more so than Black Cleaver (unless the whole enemy team has no armor).


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RustedCorpse

Junior Member

01-31-2012

Thanks but how can I figure these things out on my own? Or is it more a matter of playing the character a ton and learning your own core build then devising runes from there? I find many guides to be conflicting or even down right misleading.

So with Graves I would want to play him a bit and realize as you said that he's last hit dependent and that he should favor last whisper? I sometimes don't understand how someone says one item benefits one character but not another? For instance how does the atk speed and stacks from black cleaver not help graves as much?


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

01-31-2012

I use math and actually do the calculations for AD runes vs Armor Pen runes.

As for Last Whisper vs Black Cleaver, I'll admit...that is largely my opinion. My reasoning for my opinion is simple though.

Black Cleaver works if you can build up stacks of the debuff on your target. So opening with Buckshot with a Black Cleaver would be stupid. Or hitting anyone with one of Grave's abilties without full Black Cleaver stacks would be stupid. Of course, someone will argue that Graves won't use Buckshot as much lategame. But then, there is still the issue of Graves' ult. Often when you are trying to nail someone with Graves' ult, you will not have been able to apply full Black Cleaver stacks to that target...or to the targets in the splash.

On the other hand, Tristana and Vayne's physical damage is all single target. Black Cleaver makes way more sense on them. Tristana does have AoE's...but it is all magic damage so neither item would help anyway. If a lot of enemies have stacked a decent amount of armor, I'll probably still get Last Whisper on them. But a lot of AD ranged carries have abilities that won't benefit from the Black Cleaver because full stacks won't be applied to the target. Caitlyn is another example. Her ult will generally do better with a Last Whisper because Black Cleaver needs stacks to be worth it.


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LancerXXX

Senior Member

01-31-2012

I myself prefer AD runes, simply because they are cheaper and I suck at last-hitting. And runes only give small bonuses, and those small bonuses are strongest at Lvl 1. AD runes are stronger than ArPen runes, even against champions, at Lvl 1.


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RustedCorpse

Junior Member

01-31-2012

TwistWrist thanks for the indepth replies. If I can steal you for one more question (1.5 really) you comment about an excess of armor pen, I assume you mean I have more armor pen than they have armor. How does the 10% mastery factor into this? I read about how it simply takes a percentage of the opponents armor away, does it in any way stack with armor pen, what is a "sweet spot" you suggest to aim for with armor pen?


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Seasoned Salmon

Senior Member

02-01-2012

I choose Armour Pen purely because it gives you an 100+ damage boost to champs with 0 armour, so basically any caster. Example, if you do 80 damage and you have 10 armour penetration. You will do 90 damage, thus giving you an advantage over flat damage runes.


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustedCorpse View Post
TwistWrist thanks for the indepth replies. If I can steal you for one more question (1.5 really) you comment about an excess of armor pen, I assume you mean I have more armor pen than they have armor. How does the 10% mastery factor into this? I read about how it simply takes a percentage of the opponents armor away, does it in any way stack with armor pen, what is a "sweet spot" you suggest to aim for with armor pen?
10% armor penetration is factored after flat armor penetration. It is almost a non-factor early game.

For my AD ranged carries, I get 15 armor penetration from marks and use AD quints.

In total after masteries, I have 21 flat armor penetration (and 10% armor penetration but that really is more of a factor mid to late game).

That usually is enough to do true damage in the early levels against anyone without armor seals and isn't wasted against an AD ranged carry that does get armor seals.

Lancer is right that at level 1, your autoattacks will do more damage with all AD marks/quints. But if you have a skill for harassment that does like 100+ physical damage (AKA level 2 Buckshot), armor penetration marks will cause the skill to do more damage. Same thing applies after you buy some AD.

In the end, it is up to you what marks/quints you want to run.


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netkitten

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Senior Member

02-01-2012

check this article
http://rog.clgaming.net/blogs/a-diff...an-arpen-runes

roughly arpen is better mid game, ad is better early and for junglers


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by netkitten View Post
check this article
http://rog.clgaming.net/blogs/a-diff...an-arpen-runes

roughly arpen is better mid game, ad is better early and for junglers
That's actually not true. Very few junglers go AD runes for jungling. Most autoattack junglers go with a mix of AS and Armor Pen runes.

Most AD scaling abilities do more damage with Armor Pen than AD runes at level 2 of the skill or basically, level 3 of the champ.


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