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Karma abilities vs other Champ abilities

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Febo Apolo

Senior Member

01-29-2012

Here is a complete comparison between Karma's abilities against comparable other champ abilities

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Mordekaiser's Siphon of Destruction vs Karma's Heavenly Wave

Cooldown: both 6 sec
Range: Mordekaiser 700 / Karma 600
Base Cost: Mordekaiser 24 hp / Karma 70 mana
Extra cost per skill lv: Mordekaiser +12hp / Karma +5 mana
Base magic damage: both 70
Extra magic damage per skill lv: Mordekaiser +45 / Karma +40
AP ratio: both 0.6

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How does this affect the game:

At level 1 both skills at level 1 ap doesn't matter
Same: magic damage, cooldown
Mana cost: Not aplicable but i do feel Karma is NOT good here (bad early mana)
Range: Mordekaiser wins

At level 9 both skills at level 5 ap doesn't matter
Same: cooldown
Mana cost: Not aplicable but i do feel Karma IS good here
Range: Mordekaiser wins
Magic Damage: Mordekaiser wins by 20 magic damage

At level 18 Mordekaiser skill at level 5 and Karma skill at level 6 ap doesn't matter
Same: cooldown
Mana cost: Not aplicable but i do feel Karma is good here
Range: Mordekaiser wins
Magic Damage: Karma wins by 20 magic damage

notes: Mordekaiser has an ult in exchange for that last skill level and synergy on his passive

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Nidalee's Primal Surge vs Karma's Heavenly Wave heal effect (tricky as there is no AoE healing except for soraka or janna one of them global and the other one has CC knock back and it was a fourth ability)

Cooldown: Nidalee 10s / Karma 6s (actual cooldown on the ability with no mantra charge) at the cost of a mantra charge (at lv 1 a charge each 30 sec, at lv 7 each 25s, at lv 13 20s, max 2 stacks)
Range: Nidalee 600 / Karma 600 (estimated) with a 60º Cone Width as AoE *important*
Mana cost at lv1: Nidalee 60 / Karma 70
Extra mana cost per skill lv: Nidalee 20 / Karma 5
Base heal lv1: Nidalee 50 / Karma 35 +5% of missing health
Extra base heal per skill level: Nidalee +35 / Karma +20 (Karma has a lv6 tho)
AP ratio: Nidalee +0.7 / Karma +1% per 50 ability power above 25 of missing health
Extras:
Nidalee: Attack Speed: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 %
Karma: AoE nuke has been covered already compared to mordekaiser

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How does this affect the game:

this is way harder to compare but I'll give some numbers

At level 1 both skills at level 1 with ap = 0 on a target missing 300 health
Same: Range, Heal power
Cooldown: Karma wins first 2 heals after that she has to wait 30 sec for each heal, overall Nidalee wins as Karma will be using mantra charges on other abilities too
Mana cost: Nidalee wins
Utilities: Nidalee grants +20 aspd / Karma has an AoE Heal


At level 9 both skills at level 5 with ap = 0 on a target missing 600 health
Same: Range
Mana cost: Karma wins
Cooldown: Karma wins first 2 heals after that she has to wait 25 sec for each heal, overall Nidalee wins as Karma will be using mantra charges on other abilities too
heal power: Nidalee wins by 45hp (note: 600 missing health at lv 9)
Utilities: Nidalee grants +60% aspd / Karma has an AoE Heal
Note: that extra skill level grants +20 hp still lower than nidalee's heal

At level 18 Nidalee skill at level 5 and Karma skill at level 6 with ap = 300 on a target missing 1000 health
Same: Range
Mana cost: Karma wins
Cooldown: Karma wins first 2 heals after that she has to wait 20 sec for each heal, overall Nidalee wins as Karma will be using mantra charges on other abilities too
heal power: Nidalee wins by 155hp
Utilities: Nidalee grants +60% aspd / Karma has an AoE Heal

At level 18 Nidalee skill at level 5 and Karma skill at level 6 with ap = 400 on a 3 targets with a combinated missing health of 2000
Same: Range
Mana cost: Karma wins
Cooldown: Karma wins first 2 heals after that she has to wait 20 sec for each heal, overall Nidalee wins as Karma will be using mantra charges on other abilities too
Heal power: Karma wins by 185hp
Utilities: Nidalee grants +60% aspd on target, focus healing/ Karma DID an AoE Heal

note:
- it doesn't work unless those 3 players are somewhat damaged so the heal its not capped by max hp
- this heal is possible every 20 sec for karma if they targets keep that missing health, if they somehoe restore health on this heal for example next heal would cure less, big time AND she wouldnt be able to mantra any other abilities if she does she has to wait another 20 sec for 1 heal
- Nidalee has to wait 10 sec each heal having the buff back

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Zilean's Time Warp vs Karma's Spirit Bond

Cooldown: Zilean 20s / Karma 15-14-13-12-11-10 s (note: zilean got rewind ability -10s cooldown)
Range: Zilean 700 / Karma 800
Leash range: Zilean infinite / Karma 1000
Cost: Zilean 100 / Karma 65-75-85-95-105-115
Duration: Zilean 2.5-3.25-4-4.75-5.5 / Karma 5 (3 on AoE effect)
Movement Speed Modifier: Zilean 55% / Karma 10-12-14-16-18-20% (double effect at the cost of a mantra charge)
Extra: Karma can damage AND slow enemies passing through the beam as AoE effect, boosts allies. The bond breaks on over leash limit range and stealthed champions. Karma gets the bonus herself plus her target.
The damage on this ability has the highest base magic damage on all her abilities (10 more than heavenly wave and a +0.1 ap ratio) as a non-direct-targeteable AoE
The bond is a straight line, hard to catch your team mates in a line or the enemies alike

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How does this affect the game:

At level 1 both skills at lv1
Mana Cost: Karma wins by 35 mana
Cooldown: Karma wins by 5 sec
Range: Zilean Wins
Duration: Karma wins by 2.5 s
Movement Speed Modifier: Zilean wins by 45%, just 35% at the cost of a mantra charge

At level 18 Zilean skill at level 5 and Karma skill at level 6
Mana Cost: Zilean Wins
Cooldown: Karma wins by 10 sec (lets not forget rewind ability, in that case they are equal but Zilean has a higher mana cost, 35 more)
Range: Zilean Wins
Duration: Zilean Wins
Movement Speed Modifier: Zilean wins by 35%, just 15% at the cost of a mantra charge

Utilities: Janna grants +50 ad & can target turrets / Karma has an AoE attack around the target at the cost of a mantra charge

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Janna's Eye Of The Storm vs Karma's Soul Shield

Duration: both 5 sec
Cooldown: both 10 sec
Range: Janna 800 / Karma 650 (estimated)
Lv1 mana cost : both 70 mana
Extra mana cost per skill level: +10 mana both of them (karma has a lv 6 tho)
Lv 1 Shield Strength: both 80
Extra Shield Strength per skill level: +40 both of them (karma has a lv6 tho)
Ap ratio: Janna +0.9 / Karma +0.8
Extras:
Janna: Attack Damage Bonus: 14 / 23 / 32 / 41 / 50
This ability can target turrets.
Karma: Karma has an AoE attack around the target equal to shield strength at the cost of a mantra charge
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How does this affect the game:
At level 9 both skills at level 5 with ap = 0
Same: Duration, Cooldown, mana cost, strength shield
Range: Janna wins
Utilities: Janna grants +50 ad & can target turrets / Karma has an AoE attack around the target at the cost of a mantra charge

At level 9 both skills at level 5 with ap > 0
Same: Duration, Cooldown, mana cost
Range: Janna wins
Strength shield: Janna wins
Utilities: Janna grants +50 ad & can target turrets / Karma has an AoE attack around the target at the cost of a mantra charge

At level 11 or above Janna skill at level 5 and Karma Skill at level 6 with ap = 0
Same: Duration, Cooldown
Range: Janna wins
Mana cost: Janna wins
Strength shield: Karma wins by 40hp
Utilities: Janna grants +50 ad & can target turrets / Karma has an AoE attack around the target at the cost of a mantra charge

At level 11 or above Janna skill at level 5 and Karma Skill at level 6 with ap = 400
Same: Duration, Cooldown, Strength shield
Range: Janna wins
Mana cost: Janna wins
Utilities: Janna grants +50 ad & can target turrets / Karma has an AoE attack around the target at the cost of a mantra charge

more ap = Janna has more strenght shield than karma

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Conclusion:
She doesn't have a kit strong enough to compare to other champs with a real ultimate
Short range on most of her abilities
You need perfect positioning to get the most benefit of her abilities with little range means very close to bruisers
Compared to other supports no CC (even zilean has a better CC and that is just a slow a remarkable one)
High mana cost
At the cot of a mantra charge = wait 20 sec at lv 13+ for your next mantra charge

EDIT:
- Comparison here are 0 equipment vs 0 equipment most of the times if not specified
- I Play karma with 40% CDR but I've tried other builds as well
- made 3 pages runes for her
- I've played ap carry, full support and jungle role as karma (won a ranked as jungle karma lolz)
- compare karma stats against morgana's Karma falls on every stat except for 7 extra health she has and more aspd
- healing your own minions is a way of pushing (consider this if you meant to just last hit)

SOURCE: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/


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OldManInternetz

Senior Member

01-29-2012

1) Karma receives bonus AP when she loses health, Morde doesn't
2) It's not a 35% movespeed modifier difference when Karma uses Mantra, it's 15% (55 - 40 = 15, not 35).

There's way more things to comment on here but it'd take forever to read the rest.


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Clockmaker

Senior Member

01-29-2012

holy **** long post.

from what i've gathered you say that her level 6 spells do not compare with any other support or AP caster. To this i can agree.

for any of karma's level 6 abilities to actually compete with other casters / supports she needs to use mantra charges, in which they are very limited.

a general buff to the later levels of karmas' kit will definitely help in improving her game play since she does not have an actual ultimate, so her abilities @ level 6 should pick up the slack by being generally stronger than any other similar counterpart.


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Febo Apolo

Senior Member

01-29-2012

Quote:
OldManInternetz:
1) Karma receives bonus AP when she loses health, Morde doesn't
2) It's not a 35% movespeed modifier difference when Karma uses Mantra, it's 15% (55 - 40 = 15, not 35).

There's way more things to comment on here but it'd take forever to read the rest.


1) I can agree on mordekaiser
2) It IS a 35% movespeed modifier difference when Karma uses Mantra at lv1
and 15% at lv6


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Arceolis

Member

01-29-2012

Obviously you dont play karma much. Karma is a very strong lane champion in my opinion. I have played countless matches with her and she can make an entire enemy team rethink their moves while she is around. Cd will fix the mantra problem.


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Gen Nakazora

Recruiter

01-29-2012

Quote:
Febo Apolo:
Here is a complete comparison between Karma's abilities against comparable other champ abilities

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Mordekaiser's Siphon of Destruction vs Karma's Heavenly Wave

Cooldown: both 6 sec
Range: Mordekaiser 700 / Karma 600
Base Cost: Mordekaiser 24 hp / Karma 70 mana
Extra cost per skill lv: Mordekaiser +12hp / Karma +5 mana
Base magic damage: both 70
Extra magic damage per skill lv: Mordekaiser +45 / Karma +40
AP ratio: both 0.6

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How does this affect the game:

At level 1 both skills at level 1 ap doesn't matter
Same: magic damage, cooldown
Mana cost: Not aplicable but i do feel Karma is NOT good here (bad early mana)
Range: Mordekaiser wins

At level 9 both skills at level 5 ap doesn't matter
Same: cooldown
Mana cost: Not aplicable but i do feel Karma IS good here
Range: Mordekaiser wins
Magic Damage: Mordekaiser wins by 20 magic damage

At level 18 Mordekaiser skill at level 5 and Karma skill at level 6 ap doesn't matter
Same: cooldown
Mana cost: Not aplicable but i do feel Karma is good here
Range: Mordekaiser wins
Magic Damage: Karma wins by 20 magic damage

notes: Mordekaiser has an ult in exchange for that last skill level and synergy on his passive

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Nidalee's Primal Surge vs Karma's Heavenly Wave heal effect (tricky as there is no AoE healing except for soraka or janna one of them global and the other one has CC knock back and it was a fourth ability)

Cooldown: Nidalee 10s / Karma 6s (actual cooldown on the ability with no mantra charge) at the cost of a mantra charge (at lv 1 a charge each 30 sec, at lv 7 each 25s, at lv 13 20s, max 2 stacks)
Range: Nidalee 600 / Karma 600 (estimated) with a 60º Cone Width as AoE *important*
Mana cost at lv1: Nidalee 60 / Karma 70
Extra mana cost per skill lv: Nidalee 20 / Karma 5
Base heal lv1: Nidalee 50 / Karma 35 +5% of missing health
Extra base heal per skill level: Nidalee +35 / Karma +20 (Karma has a lv6 tho)
AP ratio: Nidalee +0.7 / Karma +1% per 50 ability power above 25 of missing health
Extras:
Nidalee: Attack Speed: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 %
Karma: AoE nuke has been covered already compared to mordekaiser

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How does this affect the game:

this is way harder to compare but I'll give some numbers

At level 1 both skills at level 1 with ap = 0 on a target missing 300 health
Same: Range, Heal power
Cooldown: Karma wins first 2 heals after that she has to wait 30 sec for each heal, overall Nidalee wins as Karma will be using mantra charges on other abilities too
Mana cost: Nidalee wins
Utilities: Nidalee grants +20 aspd / Karma has an AoE Heal


At level 9 both skills at level 5 with ap = 0 on a target missing 600 health
Same: Range
Mana cost: Karma wins
Cooldown: Karma wins first 2 heals after that she has to wait 25 sec for each heal, overall Nidalee wins as Karma will be using mantra charges on other abilities too
heal power: Nidalee wins by 45hp (note: 600 missing health at lv 9)
Utilities: Nidalee grants +60% aspd / Karma has an AoE Heal
Note: that extra skill level grants +20 hp still lower than nidalee's heal

At level 18 Nidalee skill at level 5 and Karma skill at level 6 with ap = 300 on a target missing 1000 health
Same: Range
Mana cost: Karma wins
Cooldown: Karma wins first 2 heals after that she has to wait 20 sec for each heal, overall Nidalee wins as Karma will be using mantra charges on other abilities too
heal power: Nidalee wins by 155hp
Utilities: Nidalee grants +60% aspd / Karma has an AoE Heal

At level 18 Nidalee skill at level 5 and Karma skill at level 6 with ap = 400 on a 3 targets with a combinated missing health of 2000
Same: Range
Mana cost: Karma wins
Cooldown: Karma wins first 2 heals after that she has to wait 20 sec for each heal, overall Nidalee wins as Karma will be using mantra charges on other abilities too
Heal power: Karma wins by 185hp
Utilities: Nidalee grants +60% aspd on target, focus healing/ Karma DID an AoE Heal

note:
- it doesn't work unless those 3 players are somewhat damaged so the heal its not capped by max hp
- this heal is possible every 20 sec for karma if they targets keep that missing health, if they somehoe restore health on this heal for example next heal would cure less, big time AND she wouldnt be able to mantra any other abilities if she does she has to wait another 20 sec for 1 heal
- Nidalee has to wait 10 sec each heal having the buff back

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********************************************************************************************************

Zilean's Time Warp vs Karma's Spirit Bond

Cooldown: Zilean 20s / Karma 15-14-13-12-11-10 s (note: zilean got rewind ability -10s cooldown)
Range: Zilean 700 / Karma 800
Leash range: Zilean infinite / Karma 1000
Cost: Zilean 100 / Karma 65-75-85-95-105-115
Duration: Zilean 2.5-3.25-4-4.75-5.5 / Karma 5 (3 on AoE effect)
Movement Speed Modifier: Zilean 55% / Karma 10-12-14-16-18-20% (double effect at the cost of a mantra charge)
Extra: Karma can damage AND slow enemies passing through the beam as AoE effect, boosts allies. The bond breaks on over leash limit range and stealthed champions. Karma gets the bonus herself plus her target.
The damage on this ability has the highest base magic damage on all her abilities (10 more than heavenly wave and a +0.1 ap ratio) as a non-direct-targeteable AoE
The bond is a straight line, hard to catch your team mates in a line or the enemies alike

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How does this affect the game:

At level 1 both skills at lv1
Mana Cost: Karma wins by 35 mana
Cooldown: Karma wins by 5 sec
Range: Zilean Wins
Duration: Karma wins by 2.5 s
Movement Speed Modifier: Zilean wins by 45%, just 35% at the cost of a mantra charge

At level 18 Zilean skill at level 5 and Karma skill at level 6
Mana Cost: Zilean Wins
Cooldown: Karma wins by 10 sec (lets not forget rewind ability, in that case they are equal but Zilean has a higher mana cost, 35 more)
Range: Zilean Wins
Duration: Zilean Wins
Movement Speed Modifier: Zilean wins by 35%, just 15% at the cost of a mantra charge

Utilities: Janna grants +50 ad & can target turrets / Karma has an AoE attack around the target at the cost of a mantra charge

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Janna's Eye Of The Storm vs Karma's Soul Shield

Duration: both 5 sec
Cooldown: both 10 sec
Range: Janna 800 / Karma 650 (estimated)
Lv1 mana cost : both 70 mana
Extra mana cost per skill level: +10 mana both of them (karma has a lv 6 tho)
Lv 1 Shield Strength: both 80
Extra Shield Strength per skill level: +40 both of them (karma has a lv6 tho)
Ap ratio: Janna +0.9 / Karma +0.8
Extras:
Janna: Attack Damage Bonus: 14 / 23 / 32 / 41 / 50
This ability can target turrets.
Karma: Karma has an AoE attack around the target equal to shield strength at the cost of a mantra charge
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How does this affect the game:
At level 9 both skills at level 5 with ap = 0
Same: Duration, Cooldown, mana cost, strength shield
Range: Janna wins
Utilities: Janna grants +50 ad & can target turrets / Karma has an AoE attack around the target at the cost of a mantra charge

At level 9 both skills at level 5 with ap > 0
Same: Duration, Cooldown, mana cost
Range: Janna wins
Strength shield: Janna wins
Utilities: Janna grants +50 ad & can target turrets / Karma has an AoE attack around the target at the cost of a mantra charge

At level 11 or above Janna skill at level 5 and Karma Skill at level 6 with ap = 0
Same: Duration, Cooldown
Range: Janna wins
Mana cost: Janna wins
Strength shield: Karma wins by 40hp
Utilities: Janna grants +50 ad & can target turrets / Karma has an AoE attack around the target at the cost of a mantra charge

At level 11 or above Janna skill at level 5 and Karma Skill at level 6 with ap = 400
Same: Duration, Cooldown, Strength shield
Range: Janna wins
Mana cost: Janna wins
Utilities: Janna grants +50 ad & can target turrets / Karma has an AoE attack around the target at the cost of a mantra charge

more ap = Janna has more strenght shield than karma

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********************************************************************************************************

Conclusion:
She doesn't have a kit strong enough to compare to other champs with a real ultimate
Short range on most of her abilities
You need perfect positioning to get the most benefit of her abilities with little range means very close to bruisers
Compared to other supports no CC (even zilean has a better CC and that is just a slow a remarkable one)
High mana cost
At the cot of a mantra charge = wait 20 sec at lv 13+ for your next mantra charge

SOURCE: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/


All of these are very good comparisons, and I respect that you took the time to look at them as such. But I'd like to point out something on all of them.

General: Due to mantra's nature, it is almost a stupid idea to play karma without full 40% cdr. This reduces all her abilities to much lower cool downs.

Karma v Nidalee Heals
1. Look at general. This reduces mantra times to 18, 15, and 12. Nidalee still wins, but not as greatly as you make it seem.
2. Karma's may not be consistant, but it is large for tanks and low health characters.

Karma v Janna Shield
1. Karma's shield can target ANY allied unit. This includes minions. So while Janna's has defense potential, Karma's gives you more time to push.
2. Without scaling, lvl 5, both have the same strength. With, Janna beats her slightly.
3. Karma's may not give AD boost, but it can be a nuke from any ally when mantra is used. For the same as her shield strength. This means picking up, or helping pick up kills. With partners who will not kill you if you ks (I play with good friends, since I've had people blow up on me for auto attack ks in the middle of team fights, as any character.), she can pick up many kills with this little burst, where as Janna or her target have to be in attack range for her shield to help them.
4. Look at general. With CDR, the shield has a 6 second cool down. That means there is a one second gap without the shield.

I do appreciate someone making a more fair comparison though. I just wanted to point out what you missed.


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Febo Apolo

Senior Member

01-29-2012

Quote:
Gen Nakazora:
All of these are very good comparisons, and I respect that you took the time to look at them as such. But I'd like to point out something on all of them.

General: Due to mantra's nature, it is almost a stupid idea to play karma without full 40% cdr. This reduces all her abilities to much lower cool downs.

Karma v Nidalee Heals
1. Look at general. This reduces mantra times to 18, 15, and 12. Nidalee still wins, but not as greatly as you make it seem.
2. Karma's may not be consistant, but it is large for tanks and low health characters.

Karma v Janna Shield
1. Karma's shield can target ANY allied unit. This includes minions. So while Janna's has defense potential, Karma's gives you more time to push.
2. Without scaling, lvl 5, both have the same strength. With, Janna beats her slightly.
3. Karma's may not give AD boost, but it can be a nuke from any ally when mantra is used. For the same as her shield strength. This means picking up, or helping pick up kills. With partners who will not kill you if you ks (I play with good friends, since I've had people blow up on me for auto attack ks in the middle of team fights, as any character.), she can pick up many kills with this little burst, where as Janna or her target have to be in attack range for her shield to help them.
4. Look at general. With CDR, the shield has a 6 second cool down. That means there is a one second gap without the shield.

I do appreciate someone making a more fair comparison though. I just wanted to point out what you missed.


about nidalee
1.- it is unfair to compare a 40% CDR vs a 0% CDR build
2.- sure she heal tons on tanks or low health champs, but in a team fight you should be focusing targets, most of the time get enemies as quick as possible, cant focus that healing power to a single target, but you cant really save your squishy team mate with this heal, shield really can but not this heal, its more like an overall heal

about janna
1.- point, true i didnt know janna couldnt shield a minion (im way too used to shield minions to push, works wonders on siege minions
2.- I tried to say that ont ha comparison on lv 9 vs lv 9, and to comapre them both at max level
3.- True she do can damage and damage well but i insist int he fact that she has little mantra uses before running out in a team fight
4.- lets say janna with 40% cooldown gets the same benefit as karma (talking about the shield) on a still higher ap ratio, as you can use CDR on karma you can also use them on everyone else

+1 anyway


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Febo Apolo

Senior Member

01-29-2012

PD: i dont know if i made my point


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JuGao

Senior Member

01-30-2012

u know what let's compare random abilities to random other champions abilities just because that's totally how the game works.

and then let's mention some stupid **** like 'mordekaiser's siphon has more range' when in reality you left out the pat where karma's has an angle about twice as large, not to mention the skills are completely ****ing different, they just both happen to have a cone aoe. let's throw in annie's and qq that karma's doesnt have an aoe stun.
honestly i can't believe you ended up writing that big f*** post without once considering "maybe i'm just stupid"


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Naitavi

Senior Member

01-30-2012

Quote:
Inters:
u know what let's compare random abilities to random other champions abilities just because that's totally how the game works.


Yeah, no,

OP compares champions SIMILAR to Karma, not just any random champs. He's not comparing AD carries with Tanks or anything.