Renekton: Butchery in the Modern Age (U remade, bro?)

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Berk Berkly

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Attachment 366769

Examining the Beast

As a refresher, Renekton's current profile: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wik...r_of_the_Sands

The competitiveness of Renekton in the current era is held back by design flaws. Comparatively, his closest contemporary peers, Tryn and Riven, non-mana using melee ADs, out-scale and out-play him by non-trivial margins. Realistically, there should be no good reason for this but we will explore why this happens. In addition, we will provide thematically appropriate, practical alterations to fix the offending issues ready balance testing and tweaking.

First, why does Renekton "drop off" during late-game? Two reasons, being a melee and how he actually gains Fury.

First, Renekton is nominally an AD-caster, his abilities doing physical damage and scaling off of AD. However, he is still a melee with only limited, conditional, mobility enhancement and a tiny defense boost tied to his Ultimate activation. This, by far, means he will have to build a large tank(HP and Resists) to just survive the normal damage scaling of enemy champions, especially in group skirmishes. Being focus fired down before you can do much damage or kited due to the cooldown on Slice means he will soak up a lot of unreturned damage.

Second, Renekton's Fury system is mainly based off of auto-attacking. Unlike Tryndamere, who's Fury also scales on killing blows and crits, Ren's just scales from attacking more often with some boosting from Cull and his Ult. This means to actually scale up his Fury generation late game he needs to build attack speed items which is contrary to his AD-caster mechanics which encourage him to build more AD/Armor-Pen/CDR, similar to Riven and unlike Tryndamere, who's is primarily an auto-attacking damage based champion who's abilities which provide him with utility and defense.

Note should also be made of his passive, which gives a 50% bonus to rage generation while Ren is at 50% or less health, which compounds the counter-intuitive hash of gameplay.

Also, mobility wise, he has less overall ability than either Tryndamere or Riven in terms of getting into, out of, and around combat thanks to his higher cooldown, conditionally follow up Slice-n-Dice. No words need to be invested to explain Riven's endless stream of low cooldown dashes, but Tryndamere's Spin also starts out on a CD on par with Rene's highest rank of Slice-n-Dice, but then refreshes faster with more ranks and crits. This means Ren will be waddling around much less gracefully and being abused by kiting/snares/cc much more often.

All of these issues compound to generate a Ren that at first seems like a real beast, sustaining in lane well, doing nasty bursts of damage and seemingly on track to be a monster. But the reality of damage and defensive scaling either turns him into fragile AD or an awkward, mediocre damage Tanky-dps.

Fixing the Problem

Two provisions must be made. First his thematic concerns and practical gameplay needs.

His theme is pretty simply but powerful. Ren is a Predator, a very angry, very motivated Predator that wants to hurt you and keep hurting you until there isn't enough left for even CSI to analyze. At his peek he is an unstoppable Juggernaut of green and steel.

Practically, his current mechanics make him build tanky and that should be changed. We want player to not only play him aggressively but build him so. A rage-boiling croc shouldn't be piling on the shields and cloaks to endure his prey's ravages. No, his defenses should be far more innate, an unstoppable butcher, as opposed to a fragile punching-bag.

Next, his Fury should tie better into his gameplay. To do this:

1. Remove the empowered versions of his three basic abilities. Instead he will be balanced around only having a one state for each. Nominally this will be the initial "lesser" identity due to other improvements he will be receiving as to not trespass into the 'too good' territory.

2. Instead of gaining Fury on bland auto-attacks, he should instead gain Fury on from doing damage with his abilities. Thus doing [Q], [W], [E] combos generate Fury instead of right clicking. Auto-attacking would still keep him in combat and thus not lose Fury but otherwise not be the primary method of gaining it.

3. Instead of gaining additional Fury by being close to death, he will gain bonus Fury from doing damage to enemy champions with his abilities. This encourages an aggressive play-style by rewarding attacking enemy players instead of just creeps.

4. Ultimate Part A: Instead of his Ultimate providing Fury it would consume it over time. There will be an initial period of "free" Ultimate before it begins ticking away. This means he can turn on Dominus, dive into a team fight and gain additional uptime due to his abilities generating rage and bonus rage from hitting enemy players. The cooldown on his Ultimate would be adjusted to usable more often.

5. Ultimate Part B: Instead of a passive damage Aura, it would be replaced with more defensive stats. Nominally boosts to not only his HP, but also MR, Armor, and CC reduction. This is to encourage players to build more aggressive damage items and let his Ult 'take care' of his defensive concerns. Players still wanting to build tanky could, but that would just make him a big bag of bulk that tickles damage-wise instead of the scary giant Klingon Croc that he should be.

What those abilities could look like after the changes

Resource: Fury

When Renekton deals damage with his abilities he gains Fury.

Passive: Reign of Anger

Renekton gains (X) bonus Fury when he deals damage to enemy Champions

Ultimate [R]: Dominus

Renekton empowers himself with dark energies, gaining increased size, bonus health, armor, magic resist, and resilience(CC reduction). After (variable) seconds, Dominus will consume (variable) Fury per second. Dominus then ends when Renekton has consumed all Fury.

Cooldown: 90/75/60 seconds.

His other abilities would remain mostly unchanged other than not having the 'empowered' version and generating X rage instead of consuming it, similar to Cull the Meek.

Adjustments in balance testing to fine tune the numbers would be made of course. End the end we should have the legendary scaly predator we know and fear, that remains competitive with contemporary Top-lane/Jungle picks like Tryndamere or Riven.

Thank you for taking the time to read and hopefully Riot with take these suggestions into consideration for our beloved butcher.


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Foxpaws

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Being a Renekton player, I agree that he is in need of some serious changes to the way that he is made. Too often, I find myself getting a nice set of early game kills, but am pushed off to the side towards end game as I have spent most of that early game cash on tanky items. But, running him without tanking items is pretty much not running him at all. At the same time though, I do not fully agree with your solution.

One reason that we find Renekton becoming near useless towards the end of a game is because that's where team fights begin to happen. His passive, being essentially the most non-existent passive in the game, finds itself becoming even less effective when he is not building it up on minions in the laning phase. Instead, he is usually left to start his ult early just to ensure that he will have a partially full rage bar by the time that the team fight starts.

If they would do what you would suggest, then it would make it extremely hard to even have an ult for a teamfight, since he would have to get several abilities in before it would be 'safe' to turn on his ult, less you run out of time (Especially during a stun lock). I think your solution is a much better solution than his current ult, being that is vastly weaker than Nasus's ult in almost every way. I just think that changing it to only abilities receiving Rage might make it a bit more tricky, especially with the lack of reward that has come with it so far.


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Epjest

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Meh, Renekton could easily become OP as hell with a few buffs. Right now he's extremely strong in the right hands, if he is changed at all it would probably be to let him passively generate fury while in combat (Kinda like Graves Passive) and change his passive to this + double combat generation at sub 50%.

Renekton isn't for a team content to get to the 40 minute mark. Renekton's team needs to use the early dominance to push for the 30 minute victory/snowball.

The game isn't balanced around all 5 champions on both sides having their ideal builds against each other and then doing a single game-ending team fight. If it was compositions would be made of all end-game champions.

*Edit: You compared him to Riven and Tryndamere, both characters that he can outlane. Both of them generally are built fairly heavy on the AD. Tryndamere is a glass cannon single target damage dealer, the closest similarity to Renekton that he has is that he's melee and uses a non-mana Fury system (and lanes top). Riven is closer since she deals largely AoE damage, like Renekton. Renekton's AoE damage is less than Riven's, his mobility is less than Rivens, his survivability is slightly higher mid-game, and less late game, and his single target damage is less than Rivens. To be honest, aside from Laning superiority Riven feels like she took Renektons job of AoE AD champion.


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Berk Berkly

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxpaws View Post
If they would do what you would suggest, then it would make it extremely hard to even have an ult for a teamfight, since he would have to get several abilities in before it would be 'safe' to turn on his ult, less you run out of time (Especially during a stun lock).
I already took this into consideration. His Ult grants him several seconds of upfront 'free' time before it starts ticking down rage as well as giving him CC reductions. This would give him breathing room both to pop his Ult prior to a skirmish, even with no Fury, as well as time to get off some abilities to fill up his Fury bar if he gets a CC as he dives in. Ultimately, we want his Ult to be ready again for the next fight as well, so the cooldown would be reduced rather dramatically as noted. This would prevent the need to sandbag on pressing the button. I don't know the perfect 'ideal' uptime but in a big team-fight, I imagine being able to hit multiple enemy champions with Cull and SnD would significantly feed Dominus sustain.

Quote:
Renekton isn't for a team content to get to the 40 minute mark. Renekton's team needs to use the early dominance to push for the 30 minute victory/snowball.
A team with Tryndamere or Riven can snowball faster and harder than one with Rene currently as his oomph starts to soften mid-game when he needs to build up tanky items. The other two can continue building pure damage and rock the house well into late game.

The idea, again is to give Ren enough defensive breathing room to build more aggressively and deal damage with abilities, instead of relying on the passive AoE damage of his Ult and auto-attacks, which is more synergistic with his AD-caster archetype.


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Thané

Senior Member

01-21-2012

i dont like these changes. his empowered abilities are what make him fun to play. they should just tweak his defense ratios, so that he is a bit naturally tougher than a wet paper bag, and add a sustain effect to his passive, cause his q for sustain is a joke. decaying fury should give him increased hp5 as it decays, and he should get 10 fury from last hits so you dont have to decimate the minion wave to get fury.

he should never be the tank on the team, and building him that way is what leads to his uselessness late game.

my only real complaint for him is that his ult is just pathetic compared to nasus, but the trade off is that renekton gets mobility and damaging moves i guess.

late game is a problem for most AD casters (pantheon comes to mind), so maybe they just need a new AD caster specefic item.


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The Chau

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thané View Post
i dont like these changes. his empowered abilities are what make him fun to play. they should just tweak his defense ratios, so that he is a bit naturally tougher than a wet paper bag, and add a sustain effect to his passive, cause his q for sustain is a joke. decaying fury should give him increased hp5 as it decays, and he should get 10 fury from last hits so you dont have to decimate the minion wave to get fury.

he should never be the tank on the team, and building him that way is what leads to his uselessness late game.

my only real complaint for him is that his ult is just pathetic compared to nasus, but the trade off is that renekton gets mobility and damaging moves i guess.

late game is a problem for most AD casters (pantheon comes to mind), so maybe they just need a new AD caster specefic item.
Yeah if I remember correctly, all of the AD casters but Riven falls off quickly towards the lategame.


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SerratedBlaze

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Senior Member

01-21-2012

These changes do not sound good to me. He already DOES gain fury from abilities hitting things. That's why I DON'T build attack speed on him and instead use CDR to make it so that i can use my abilities to get rage more often and have them up as needed.

He is strong because slice and dice propels him a good distance and allows for a change in angle. It could use a shorter cooldown since it gets in the way of rage on dice though. and more so because he can stun repetitively, although to minimum advantage when using attack speed since it's practically a suppress.

The biggest thing that would help renekton (IMO) stay alive without giving him an op advantage in defenses is to let cull the meek stack with lifesteal. If he had more natural defense he could be op in tankyness by buying fewer defense items which would cause a severe nerf.

I agree that he does not spend enough resource on offence but he is fine for the roll he plays. As long as he isn't out ranged in lane. I also agree that his passive is not particularly helpful. Your version is fine.

His ult is nice as is. It lets you get rage when you wouldn't have any and does damage passively which works well with his suppress/stun and with slicing ahead of targets or chasing. Removing the empowered abilities really removes a big part of what makes renekton unique. Also, consider comparing to shyv since the big tradeoff is she has a poke and he has a stun.


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Berk Berkly

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaniShahin View Post
Yeah if I remember correctly, all of the AD casters but Riven falls off quickly towards the lategame.
The reason why Riven doesn't fall off is because she can build nearly pure offense. Her mobility and AD scaling shield gives her enough breathing room to not need to pack in the typical Tanky-dps metagolem/atmog items to be functional in later team skirmishes. She will pick up a GA mid-late game just to solidify her presence and disruption in teamfights.

Quote:
These changes do not sound good to me. He already DOES gain fury from abilities hitting things. That's why I DON'T build attack speed on him and instead use CDR to make it so that i can use my abilities to get rage more often and have them up as needed.
No, only Cull gives him Fury but they all will consume 50 of it if he has that or more. The main method of acquiring more Fury is via auto-attacking.

Again, you can build him as a pure DPS with AD-caster items like Brutalizer and CDR Boots but if you don't build your tank up he will become vulnerable to being bursted down since his Ult only provides some HP but no resistances or CC reduction. That and Slice-n-Dice just doesn't give enough mobility to negate things like kiting or to disengage.


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solidfake

Senior Member

01-21-2012

added your thread to the main Renekton thread in the general area!
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1515193

Though I find the complete rework too drastic, but you have some nice ideas like gaining fury when dealing damage with his spells, stuff like that is what Renekton needs!

Keep slicing!


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xxsuzukixx

Member

01-21-2012

the only problem with renekton is, if you buff him slightly, he could become insanely OP and then knowing riot they would nerf him to the point where renekton players would just stop playing him


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