I'm saying it: Last hitting is an archaic game mechanic

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guhnosis

Senior Member

01-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Last hitting is exactly the definition of a mechanical skill. It's the other things the player does that actually change the dynamic of the lane. The only argument is that it takes "more skill" to be able to do these things AND do the mechanical skill at the same time, which I put into the context of having to do a similar task in Starcraft 2. It makes perfect sense if you understand logic.
Last hitting is a mechanical skill. Never denied that, even admitted that. But that's not its only impact, unlike the SC2 example.

The ONLY implication from manually moving workers is that your opponent might be distracted; it doesn't give you any information or potential advantages beyond executing the skill better. Last-hitting is NOTHING like that because it does have implications and changes the dynamic of play beyond just the mini-game of timing auto attacks. The only reason the other player is doing those things is BECAUSE of the last-hitting mechanic; without it they would not be doing those things.

Maybe they might be doing other things with a different system, but that is exactly my point. Last-hitting is not JUST a chore like manually moving workers, it changes how the game plays out, and removing it could very easily make the game worse.

And nice underhanded insult at the end there. I'm done with this conversation if you're not going to comprehend what other people are saying and just insult them instead.


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OmniknightJohn

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Senior Member

01-18-2012

They certainly have thought of this, and they have even implemented it! *Gasp* What, you say? Where?

Dominion, of course. There's no last hitting in Dominion (that matters), just champion vs. champion interactions - the end result is that gold gaps become much tighter between the winning and losing team.

Some people enjoy this, and some people don't. I think the League of Legends designers are one step ahead of your game design theory by not only preserving Classic LoL for those who enjoy slowly accumulating more resources to win the late fights, while creating a non last hit based alternative for those who do not enjoy focusing on resource objectives, and want to be able to successfully compete against other summoners without them.


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Pickles

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Senior Member

01-18-2012

I think many people in this thread have never played a different moba. Dota 2 doesn't have this much passivity and it has both last hitting and denying.

Imo, the reason why this game has so much passivity is because almost everyone needs to have farm to scale well. This means 4/5 people on the team have to passively farm the lane or jungle to get their items. Gone are the days when tanks only needed levels to scale well. Now they need stupid **** like atmog. Then you have dragon being worth 190g so you need 4 people near it all the time to farm it or defend it. Experience gain for ganking is also very small which means it's not really worth it to roam in this game.

In other mobas, many characters are just pure gankers. They don't focus on farm but rather focus on keeping the other team from getting gold (which is why the gold loss is added). They scale well with level because of their base damage however items don't increase their ability damage. Dota 2 and HoN are examples.

I'm not really saying LoL has bad gameplay either. It suits a certain playerbase perfectly fine. Obviously this style isn't for the OP. He should probably go play blizzard dota if he hates last hitting.


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ASAP Fizz

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Senior Member

01-18-2012

This whole thread hints hard at dominion.


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kthnxbai

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Recruiter

01-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awestin View Post
Masters league starcraft player here:

Your comparison is horrible, your suggestion would be more like having all your building making workers and units for you or all your queen injecting on auto, it's a mechanical macro skill that helps define the good multitaskers from the bad.
i would say it's more like having infinite resources and 0 build times. YOU HAVE MORE INCENTIVE TO SUICIDE THAT 200/200 ARMY!!


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DreXxiN

Senior Member

01-18-2012

I really just feel like Macro in Starcraft is an archaic mechanic..I mean logically the SLAVES should be handling all the work at home while I control my army for domination of my opponent! Why can't my SCV's, Drones, and Probes just do all the work back home without me telling them? It's almost as stupid as Last-Hitting because why would a creep only have gold because you hit it last? Does it just disappear from the loot table when you don't last hit it?

So I'd like my army to just build and upgrade itself to focus on other dynamics like Microing because lt's face it..I played Fastest Map Possible in SC1 and that doesn't mean I suck it actually has MORE Strategy because you only have one base to work off of. It doesn't mean I lack experience it just means I am different. I'm not bad and I know how the game works and only having to focus on micro and cool explosion filled battles is definitely better in the game.

I have a Ph.D in game design. You're just going to have to trust me without credentials. Also I'm Gordon Freeman's Dad.


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Hratis Arai

Senior Member

01-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilpigeon View Post
"Counter-retort: Well, stop and think about it now. If you weren't focusing on last hitting, you'd be able to more effectively focus on something else....like actually combatting the other PLAYERS in your lane -- and pushing them out! The fact that people consider CS the ultimate way of winning your lane only proves what a crutch it currently is to gameplay."

The reason you push people out of lane is to gain a cs advantage. Getting killed isn't a big deal in LoL getting ahead in experience and gold is a big deal. laning isn't about your cs, it's about your cs in comparison to your opponent's. CS isn't a crutch it's a central mechanic for the gain and loss of gold, if you don't like that then this isn't the game for you. LoL isn't about kills and it shouldn't be it's about manipulating the various objectives to force the destruction of the enemy nexus, creeps are an important objective and many of the interesting parts of the game are based around that incentive, it's like dragon. Dragon is boring, you get 2-3 people together and shoot it but it incentivises fights and frewards skillful timing and play, creeps incentivise the game in the same way.
Finally, a well put together reason for keeping last hitting.

I understand the logic behind zoning, the idea that cs is a score system to show who is doing better than the other is also a great aspect of laning. The issue is when things get lopsided, or passive gameplay strikes up from the disadvantages of aggressive gameplay.
Manipulating objectives doesn't have to revolve around farming though, the objective is to take the turrets down and push to win. Everything else is just excess placed onto the game to achieve that one goal. Last hitting has its place in this main goal, but it tends to favor towards the passive. For example, not taking down the turret when you get the chance because it would make it harder to farm. That "strategy" holds you back from accomplishing your main goal. Aggressive gameplay should not be thrown into disadvantage because of the passive choice being the safer option. Aggressive approach, take the tower, roam about. Passive approach, keep farming for another 10~15 minutes so I can get this item. While roaming you get into engaging gameplay, while farming you do not. In the end wouldn't engaging gameplay be a more attractive approach?

Now, I'll just say this again just in case.
I'm not saying delete last hitting and be done with it, I'm saying to implement change to work out the negatives and increase the positives.


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Chauzuvoy

Senior Member

01-18-2012

I used to hate last-hitting when I first started playing. Thought it was awful. Then I recognized that's it's as much about zoning and lane control as it is about simple last-hitting. Get the enemy too low or too afraid of you to last-hit, and you've severely gimped them without killing them. The issue I see with removing the mechanic is that it means that anything you do while laning other than kill your enemies doesn't really set them back. As long as they can stand around, they're still getting the same amount of gold, whether they're chilling at their turret or in the brush at half health, or if they're harassing well and winning the lane. If you don't get a kill or drive them back, you've done practically nothing.

Also, @OP, your metaphor is off. Last-hitting is about a lot more than resource acquisition. Imagine that you had all the mineral patches in one area of the map. That would mean that your resourcing was always under harassment. Now manually ordering SCVs around becomes important, because choosing which patches get mined out first, and which don't, and where your workers are mining at any given time lets you mine safely, vs. not mining all. It's still a bad metaphor, but last-hitting is a lot more complex than simple resourcing.


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Raptamei

Senior Member

01-18-2012

The reason last hitting is pointless in LoL is because they took out denying, so last hitting is no longer competitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
The upcomming "Blizzard dota" already announced that last hitting will not be a mechanic of the game, and gold will be shared based on proximity and contribution factors.
Blizzard Dota will have all the strategic depth of Dominion. Fyi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
What a lot of people fail to realize is if you remove one crutch (having to manually gather resources) good players will focus their skill elsewhere (such as managing your army or champion), and will still dominate people who are not as good as them.
LoL removed denying, animation canceling, creep blocking etc etc etc and the game is much easier. Your theory fails.

Quote:
Last hitting is why Kill Stealing existed in the first place. Instead of the person who did the most damage getting the most gold it defaults to whoever did the last damage, even if that was 1 point of damage.
This is so you can feed your carry. Duh.


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-18-2012

Thanks for everyone telling me to play Blizzard DOTA -- I certainly will at least try it when it comes out, but alas it's not out yet.

In the mean time I am merely stating an anti-fun game mechanic that holds back a game I love from being great. I'd rather not quite LoL for the next thing, but if the next thing takes away something as mechanical as last hitting, while still providing the depth of team play and strategy that you find in many mobas -- then I am sure as hell going to be moving on.