I'm saying it: Last hitting is an archaic game mechanic

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PiersonsPuppet

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
...unless the other team can respond with two towers, then *gasp* they are closing the gap, or pulling ahead again?
Doesn't matter. Once i take down the tower, i have a vested interest in not being aggressive so that i might hold onto my tower longer.


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mabus View Post
It's not that easy to "destroy a tower in another lane". If I destroyed your tower, the next thing I would be doing is to defend my own tower to keep my advantage over you. The big problem is that the longer I can keep my tower alive, the more advantage I'll have over you, i.e., the longer I can keep my tower alive, the harder it is for you to comeback. If this isn't the definition of what snowballing means, I don't know what is.
Real?

So you are saying a gradual increase in gold for one team is going to instantly give them such an advantage that the other team can't kill a tower in any of the lanes?

If you really believe this, I'm not sure what else to say... other than it's just not correct.


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiersonsPuppet View Post
Doesn't matter. Once i take down the tower, i have a vested interest in not being aggressive so that i might hold onto my tower longer.
But there are three towers, and you can't easily protect all three. Also, you are losing out on potential gold if you are sitting and guarding a tower while the other person is gaining more than you. Checks and balances.


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PiersonsPuppet

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Real?

So you are saying a gradual increase in gold for one team is going to instantly give them such an advantage that the other team can't kill a tower in any of the lanes?

If you really believe this, I'm not sure what else to say... other than it's just not correct.
"the longer i keep my tower alive the more advantage I'll have over you"

Did you read what he posted?

Also keep in mind whatever the increased gold gain is needs to be multiplied by 5 if you want to estimate the gold advantage of the team.


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poxer

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Real?

So you are saying a gradual increase in gold for one team is going to instantly give them such an advantage that the other team can't kill a tower in any of the lanes?

If you really believe this, I'm not sure what else to say... other than it's just not correct.
You're saying a team that is up on towers can't turtle and protect their towers? One person pushes top while the rest push bot or mid. Can't the other team just defend the same? Send one person top and then the rest to where the other team is pushing? It essential makes it so whoever gets the first few towers can win the game by not overextending, keeping lanes pushed, and defending towers.


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TMS WildTurtIe

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Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Jan 31st update: v2 released!
Thanks to everyone's feedback -- including the red posts! I've read the majority of it, and wanted to release a second version of the document based on what I thought about all of ...................................... etc etc
Honestly would not mind seeing this as another game mode. (a new map would indeed be dandy.) but I actually enjoy last hitting but I were feeling lazy I would probably play this


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PiersonsPuppet

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
But there are three towers, and you can't easily protect all three. Also, you are losing out on potential gold if you are sitting and guarding a tower while the other person is gaining more than you. Checks and balances.
How am i losing gold if i just sit in my lane and prevent a push on my tower? Oh right i don't because i just need to stand in range of creeps and ill keep getting gold+the higher increase in gold i got from destroying the enemies tower.

Also be quiet, you have no idea what checks and balances are if you think that term is applicable here.


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Essat

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
...mean while, maybe your tower is going down because you left it undefended, or you kill their tower now the person in top lane can't farm safely at all is now hurting for it. There is no doubt a lot of decisions to be made with those choices, and I said in the document that there is some reward in going and doing this stuff, I am still saying that staying in lane and farming is the best reward early game (before you can make serious pushes). Want my evidence? Watch any streamer right now, you aren't going to see people roaming the enemy jungle or constantly harassing other lanes for the first 10-20 minutes... why? Because it's not consistantly effective, like playing passively and farming is.
Just tuned into doublelift's 5s game cause you told me to. 21 kills total kills between the teams, objectives warded, and just watched a 5 v 5 dragon fight 18 minutes into the game.

Nope, no reason to do anything but farm. Objectives are worthless and top needs to sit top for 20 minutes before anything can happen.


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-31-2012

18 minutes into the game... what happened for the first 18 minutes? hmmmm?

What happened after the dragon kill? Betting everyone back to their lanes.

Even if they didn't, 18 minutes is within the window where the early game boredom phase can come to an end, anyways.


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vSprixus

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Killing towers early is always worth it. No one ever lost a game by killing towers early. The best way to make it more attractive to kill towers early would be to remap the jungle to give less protection to the team that lost the tower.
If you took last hitting from minions then there would be need to be a major rework of the resource system in the game. Using an ability would never be "Should I use it to farm or harass?" you would just go for the harass every time.
A number of characters would need a remake as well as any non-fighter duelist would soon become redundant. If you removed last hitting from minions and standardized gold income many heros would lose their laning/farming advantage niche. I mean imagine Lablank vs Malz in mid. Malz has a much greater farming ability and efficiency, but Lablank (equal skills) should win harass wise hands down.
lastly last hitting does actually push the lane. With your proposed system I see the best way of winning would be to pick very strong zoners/duelist/early gamers, don't touch the minion waves and just ZONE THE **** OUT OF THE ENEMY. You don't have to worry about last hitting. so theres no real reason to stay near the minion wave. Just plant yourself in the enemy side brush and don't let the other team near the minions. The snow ball effect from this is also massive. Who ever won initial skirmishes would hands down win the game as the other team would just be completely zoned from waves.