I'm saying it: Last hitting is an archaic game mechanic

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Draydan

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Senior Member

01-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyExLxF View Post
Then stop watching League.

Here's the core of the counter argument: If you remove last hitting, it isn't the same game. It's not even close. It's a hollow snowball gametype that is extremely uninteresting and shallow.
In Dominion last hitting doesnt matter.
And (surprise surprise!) Dominion is interesting to watch, has impressive comebacks (hence not over-snowball-ish) and not shallow at all.

In Dominion I have much more close games when the outcome is decided in the last minutes than in Classic.
In Classic its mostly decided in 15-20 minutes, then its snowballing shallow uninteresting "kicking of the weak"


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9Point

Senior Member

01-26-2012

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Originally Posted by FilthyCasual View Post
Not just talking **** here but I believe everyone who does not like the idea of last hitting probably suck at last hitting.

Taking out last hitting takes out a part of skill in this game further "casualizing" it and making it o.k. to suck.

Taking out last hitting would also make "poking" much less useful. When someone has to last hit they have to run the risk that the opponent will get aggressive and "poke" or even engage them. Taking out last hitting would probably just turn the game into sit by the minions until the laning phase is over.
Yes. You make a valid point.
Problem is, in a professional setting. Both players are gonna good at last hitting. And as good as it is, its passive play. Last hit and keep the lane as stagnate as possible to lure for a jungle gank.

Why is jungling so popular? because your right, people arent good at last hitting. But promoting last hitting for the sake of skill is just as bad as removing it for the sake of sucking. Neither is right, and neither is valid.

However I do believe that last hitting should at least be addressed. I believe de-incitiving last hitting would : Make progress in 0CS support, (which Riot has already said they dont like) Make jungling more risk/reward (Jungling as it stands is to easy. Everyone can jungle. And there is little reason not to) Change champion skill set from burst to more sustain with single burst move/skill


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilthyCasual View Post
Not just talking **** here but I believe everyone who does not like the idea of last hitting probably suck at last hitting.

Taking out last hitting takes out a part of skill in this game further "casualizing" it and making it o.k. to suck.

Taking out last hitting would also make "poking" much less useful. When someone has to last hit they have to run the risk that the opponent will get aggressive and "poke" or even engage them. Taking out last hitting would probably just turn the game into sit by the minions until the laning phase is over.
There is no argument that removing last hitting doesn't remove skill. Well, let me put it this way: *A* skill. It removes one skill that currently people can get ahead or fall behind with. It's a very bland, PvE oriented skill, and is currently the primary way to get gold in the game.

The idea of this thread is to say... hey, maybe there is more interesting ways to allow one player to get ahead of the other skillfully? Quite frankly, the bar is set pretty low right now, so almost any change would be a move in the right direction.

Nobody is arguing to remove last hitting and simply replace it with some flat global gold system that gives players no way to get ahead. This would remove skill from the game without adding any in replacement. The idea is to remove one plainly bland area that is a measure of skill today, and attempt to replace it with other testaments of skill that are more fun to play, interesting to watch, etc.

Someone joked much earlier in the thread to just put gold coins on the map for players to pick up to get ahead. While this idea sounds silly at first, it would actually employ a lot of the same tactics last hitting does today: 1) Force players into a predictable spot to get their gold, allowing people to counter with harass, 2) Make zoning / pushing someone out of the lane a loss of gold for them over the other player, etc.

I am not saying lets throw gold coins on the map (although it could be a fun custom type), as this still is not very interesting, but just mentioning it again because it's interesting when you take a look and realize the similarities between the two, when initially one sounds so silly.


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Draydan

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01-26-2012

Actually having golden coins is a pretty interesting idea.
It would let instantly make melee farm easier when vs ranged.


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-26-2012

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Originally Posted by Draydan View Post
Actually having golden coins is a pretty interesting idea.
It would let instantly make melee farm easier when vs ranged.
lol I think it could be fun like I said, but need something better for real competitive play

When you think about it, after the first couple of levels jungle creeps are essentially just gold coins you can pick up every so often, since their damage is a non-factor.


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HolyExLxF

Senior Member

01-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draydan View Post
In Dominion last hitting doesnt matter.
And (surprise surprise!) Dominion is interesting to watch, has impressive comebacks (hence not over-snowball-ish) and not shallow at all.

In Dominion I have much more close games when the outcome is decided in the last minutes than in Classic.
In Classic its mostly decided in 15-20 minutes, then its snowballing shallow uninteresting "kicking of the weak"

Because Dominion has that added (and CORE) objective of Capture and Hold, not farm gold and buy items for team pushes. Hence, the gameplay does not hinge on farming.

Edit: I do not find Dominion interesting to watch. Opinions.


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Monzie

Senior Member

01-26-2012

If you really think about it, many of the nuances of sports seem idiotic by themselves. The idea of posting up in basketball, I mean why would you ever stick your butt up against someones front in any other place. Yet it is a dynamic that developed from an extremely simple game, trying to shoot a ball into a ring. Dribbling a basketball, traveling, dunking, 3 pointers, free throws, etc. Last hitting is a central dynamic that developed from dota and it is just fine, just like any of those dynamics from basketball make it interesting, challenging, and skillful.


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HolyExLxF

Senior Member

01-26-2012

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Originally Posted by 9Point View Post
Sounds as fun as watching grass grow. You should try it. It has all the same mechanics as last hitting.

Sit-n-Stand gameplay.
Really? Because last hitting is quite involving and requires a great deal of attention to execute well.

I find your analogy and argument surprising, seeing as you have over 800 wins.


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Monzie

Senior Member

01-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyExLxF View Post
Because Dominion has that added (and CORE) objective of Capture and Hold, not farm gold and buy items for team pushes. Hence, the gameplay does not hinge on farming.

Edit: I do not find Dominion interesting to watch. Opinions.
Just want to add that the only problem with balance here is that in Summoner's Rift you can deny farm and prevent snowballing, but in Dominion, there are certain champions that really outshine others as the game goes on simply because of that guaranteed income. Later game tanks can be extremely hard to oust from defending points.


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyExLxF View Post
Really? Because last hitting is quite involving and requires a great deal of attention to execute well.

I find your analogy and argument surprising, seeing as you have over 800 wins.
Attention, yes -- involving... not for a lot of people. Just because something takes your attention to execute, doesn't mean that it is involving or fun for the player