I'm saying it: Last hitting is an archaic game mechanic

First Riot Post
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Alex is White

Senior Member

01-24-2012

One of the longest reads on the forum, and I'm tired, so I just skimmed it.

Basically, I agree with you. LoL will never go without last hitting, however.

I would love to see an ARTS/MOBA game designed without the entire last hitting mechanic. I haven't played it, but I believe the game Demigod does something like this; more emphasis on turrets and crushing creep waves than just finishing off low HP creeps.


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulsilence View Post
One of the longest reads on the forum, and I'm tired, so I just skimmed it.

Basically, I agree with you. LoL will never go without last hitting, however.

I would love to see an ARTS/MOBA game designed without the entire last hitting mechanic. I haven't played it, but I believe the game Demigod does something like this; more emphasis on turrets and crushing creep waves than just finishing off low HP creeps.
I have a feeling that Blizzard dota will be the first to pull it off that people will actually play. They have such a fan base they are setup to do better than anyone else.

However, Riot has showed they aren't afraid to try new things with Dominion, so a more user friendly game mode on the horizon is not totally out of scope.


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McPummi

Senior Member

01-24-2012

I couldn't believe how you stuck to your idea so hard, so I finally read the pdf you posted. And I gotta say... I understand a lot better now.

You have almost no idea what you're talking about. You have an extremely biased view on how things in this game work, and have a personal grudge against the mechanic of last hitting. You're nearly blind to the negatives of removing it, and ignorant of it's effects on game balance.

You say killing a tower gets your team 30 seconds ahead in farming? There is so much more to it than that. First of all it puts your team 2:30 minutes ahead in farming, if we're being specific. No, not 30 seconds for each champion, 2:30 for the whole team, because it also includes support and jungle, who generally get less farm. Not only that, but it gives you map control. It makes it harder for the enemy to ward all gank paths, harder to protect map objectives, basically it makes it easier for the team who took the tower, to be aggressive. Whether they will be aggressive is completely up to them, and their understanding of the game. But from what I've seen, most players instinctively go to gank other lanes, steal the enemy jungle, etc.

If you're playing for blue team and you take the purple middle or bottom tower, you now have a much better control of the dragon. That's just one of the effects it has. If the purple team keeps their lane pushed far on their side (and if they're last hitting they can't do that for long) then blue team can just go grab the dragon and the purple's blue buff, as the purple team will be slower to react to such things because they'll be further from the objective if they don't push.

You treat last hitting as if every player in this game can do it perfectly, and gets 100% of the minions all the time. That is only true for the very best of the best, and only when they're completely outlaning the enemy. The biggest reason for the lack of early aggression is the fact that champions just aren't built for kills at early levels. You can only kill someone very early if they make a stupid mistake, like facecheck a brush, or when you have more champions than they do. Or if you harass them and chip away at their health, for example when they're going for last hits.

The same lack of aggression in the early game would still be there in your model. Just with less harassing and more straight up pushing and minion wave clearing. Assuming minion aggro hurts the same way in the early game. Unless you want the minions to completely ignore the champions, and just make it a PvP arena?

The tower hits still granting minion gold is also pretty weird. You want to encourage pushing, then take away the only big benefit it gives early game? The whole point of pushing early game is that the enemy can not farm as well under a turret. And then you'd give the gold to their whole team to boot? I just can't understand your thought process here. Even at a 75% rate, that would be pretty bad. It wouldn't encourage leaving your lane as you claim, it would just mean you gain free gold out of nowhere for no reason. It would lessen the problem of getting pushed a little bit, but at the same time it would also make zoning more powerful than pushing.

The risk zones, I think, are bad. I understand how you think they'd reward aggressive pushing, but it's much more likely they'd encourage split pushing and less team fights. And would make games snowball hard.

I think making a game mode like you suggest with a laning phase but no last hitting is a huge waste of time. It would just be a PvP arena, where you arbitrarily split the team up, just because there's a limited number of spots for income. If you truly want to make a game mode without last hitting, you need to have other sources of income, that require some sort of skill to acquire or deny. Otherwise it's just a PvP game, where k/d is the only thing that matters. On a map like Summoner's Rift, you need to be skilled at both acquiring and denying resources to get ahead. Your suggestion would pretty much eliminate the skill requirement for acquiring resources, or at least make acquiring them incredibly passive.


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HolyExLxF

Senior Member

01-25-2012

Mechanics make the game harder.

There, I've stated why you don't like last-hitting. You can't refute it. Sure, you can dance around it by saying "But it makes the game boooring" or "All the games look the same" or even "I don't think you should miss gold for barely not last hitting a creep," but the fact is you do not like the mechanic because it makes the game harder.

And do you know why taking away this mechanic is so detrimental? Let's look at some other mechanically intense games: StarCraft Brood War and StarCraft 2.

BW was hard as ****; you could only have 12 units in a control group, no MBS (multi building selection), and pathfinding was so atrocious you were better off micro-ing individuals yourself. So the skillcap for BW was incredible, and even after 14 years there hasn't been a single person who "perfected" the game mechanically.

Enter SC2. Less mechanical prowess is required. Infinite control groups, MBS, and clumpy, precise pathfinding. The skillcap, mechanically, was lessened, and nobody denies it. But do you know why StarCraft can survive and even thrive on a loss of mechanics like that? Because they weren't the only mechanics in the game. Now the game is far more a strategy game, based on unit movements and tech transitions and precise timings. BUT, there are still a PHENOMENAL amount of mechanics required to play at a professional level, and I personally believe that there are untapped mechanics that could make the game even more exciting and difficult (yet rewarding).

Last hitting is one of the very, very few mechanics MOBAs have. In League, you only ever control one unit (barring 30 second periods like Annie's ult or Morde's ult), there are no denies, and wards are infinite. It was clearly designed to be easier, yet similar, and that is absolutely fine. I have fun with this game, and I have fun with DotA.

If you took away last hitting it wouldn't be similar, it would be Diablo 2 arena without the arena plus items.


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyExLxF View Post
Mechanics make the game harder.

There, I've stated why you don't like last-hitting. You can't refute it. Sure, you can dance around it by saying "But it makes the game boooring" or "All the games look the same" or even "I don't think you should miss gold for barely not last hitting a creep," but the fact is you do not like the mechanic because it makes the game harder.

And do you know why taking away this mechanic is so detrimental? Let's look at some other mechanically intense games: StarCraft Brood War and StarCraft 2.

BW was hard as ****; you could only have 12 units in a control group, no MBS (multi building selection), and pathfinding was so atrocious you were better off micro-ing individuals yourself. So the skillcap for BW was incredible, and even after 14 years there hasn't been a single person who "perfected" the game mechanically.

Enter SC2. Less mechanical prowess is required. Infinite control groups, MBS, and clumpy, precise pathfinding. The skillcap, mechanically, was lessened, and nobody denies it. But do you know why StarCraft can survive and even thrive on a loss of mechanics like that? Because they weren't the only mechanics in the game. Now the game is far more a strategy game, based on unit movements and tech transitions and precise timings. BUT, there are still a PHENOMENAL amount of mechanics required to play at a professional level, and I personally believe that there are untapped mechanics that could make the game even more exciting and difficult (yet rewarding).

Last hitting is one of the very, very few mechanics MOBAs have. In League, you only ever control one unit (barring 30 second periods like Annie's ult or Morde's ult), there are no denies, and wards are infinite. It was clearly designed to be easier, yet similar, and that is absolutely fine. I have fun with this game, and I have fun with DotA.

If you took away last hitting it wouldn't be similar, it would be Diablo 2 arena without the arena plus items.
Again, idiots stating things as fact when they are purely opinion. Do you understand what a fact is? Something you can back up with no dispute. 2 + 2 = 4 is a fact. The reasons that I, and many other people don't like last hitting, in your OPINION, is not a fact. You write a sentence, claim it's a fact, and expect people to value it as true. You sir, are an idiot... there's no other way to put it delicately, sorry.

I played Starcraft, Brood War, and Starcraft II... I am fully aware of the progression. They streamlined Starcraft II, recognizing the mechanical things that users could do without, while focusing on improving things that help the user control their army, micro, and actually compete in the meat of a battle. Stracraft is most definitely a most complicated game from a 1v1 standpoint, but it fails in balance at any kind of team arena, and nobody takes it seriously there. Essentially the more people in the match, the more ridiculous the balance becomes.

League of Legends from a single player stand point is infinitely more simple, but it's balanced solely around team play, and it takes a different kind of skill to be able to coordinate with 4 peers and execute battles at the right times and well to pull off the wins. This is the kind of skill that should separate the pros from the newbs, and does to a certain extent right now, but it's clouded with the mechanical skills, such as last hitting to become more powerful, that have yet to be streamlined.

People who think the skill cap was lowered from Brood War to Starcraft II are the same kind of simpletons who can't understand how good players would still pull ahead with more interesting mechanics than last hitting. Just because they make certain things EASIER to perform in a game, doesn't mean that good players will still not dominate. If good players do not have to focus on one thing, they will transfer their energy and knowledge to another area to dominate their opponent. If sitting back in lane and racking up last hits becomes less of a focus from game mechanics, pro players will develop more dynamic and interesting ways to win matches, just as Starcraft II battles are improved by more control groups, not having to manually tell newly trained workers what to do at base, etc, etc.


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ImOnTheCase

Senior Member

01-25-2012

ELO hell dwellers upvoted this thread.


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by McPummi View Post
I couldn't believe how you stuck to your idea so hard, so I finally read the pdf you posted. And I gotta say... I understand a lot better now.

You have almost no idea what you're talking about. You have an extremely biased view on how things in this game work, and have a personal grudge against the mechanic of last hitting. You're nearly blind to the negatives of removing it, and ignorant of it's effects on game balance.

You say killing a tower gets your team 30 seconds ahead in farming? There is so much more to it than that. First of all it puts your team 2:30 minutes ahead in farming, if we're being specific. No, not 30 seconds for each champion, 2:30 for the whole team, because it also includes support and jungle, who generally get less farm. Not only that, but it gives you map control. It makes it harder for the enemy to ward all gank paths, harder to protect map objectives, basically it makes it easier for the team who took the tower, to be aggressive. Whether they will be aggressive is completely up to them, and their understanding of the game. But from what I've seen, most players instinctively go to gank other lanes, steal the enemy jungle, etc.

If you're playing for blue team and you take the purple middle or bottom tower, you now have a much better control of the dragon. That's just one of the effects it has. If the purple team keeps their lane pushed far on their side (and if they're last hitting they can't do that for long) then blue team can just go grab the dragon and the purple's blue buff, as the purple team will be slower to react to such things because they'll be further from the objective if they don't push.

You treat last hitting as if every player in this game can do it perfectly, and gets 100% of the minions all the time. That is only true for the very best of the best, and only when they're completely outlaning the enemy. The biggest reason for the lack of early aggression is the fact that champions just aren't built for kills at early levels. You can only kill someone very early if they make a stupid mistake, like facecheck a brush, or when you have more champions than they do. Or if you harass them and chip away at their health, for example when they're going for last hits.

The same lack of aggression in the early game would still be there in your model. Just with less harassing and more straight up pushing and minion wave clearing. Assuming minion aggro hurts the same way in the early game. Unless you want the minions to completely ignore the champions, and just make it a PvP arena?

The tower hits still granting minion gold is also pretty weird. You want to encourage pushing, then take away the only big benefit it gives early game? The whole point of pushing early game is that the enemy can not farm as well under a turret. And then you'd give the gold to their whole team to boot? I just can't understand your thought process here. Even at a 75% rate, that would be pretty bad. It wouldn't encourage leaving your lane as you claim, it would just mean you gain free gold out of nowhere for no reason. It would lessen the problem of getting pushed a little bit, but at the same time it would also make zoning more powerful than pushing.

The risk zones, I think, are bad. I understand how you think they'd reward aggressive pushing, but it's much more likely they'd encourage split pushing and less team fights. And would make games snowball hard.

I think making a game mode like you suggest with a laning phase but no last hitting is a huge waste of time. It would just be a PvP arena, where you arbitrarily split the team up, just because there's a limited number of spots for income. If you truly want to make a game mode without last hitting, you need to have other sources of income, that require some sort of skill to acquire or deny. Otherwise it's just a PvP game, where k/d is the only thing that matters. On a map like Summoner's Rift, you need to be skilled at both acquiring and denying resources to get ahead. Your suggestion would pretty much eliminate the skill requirement for acquiring resources, or at least make acquiring them incredibly passive.
Wow, at least I backed up my statements with some kind of analysis that made sense... your response is just wow.... let me break it down.

Quote:
You say killing a tower gets your team 30 seconds ahead in farming? There is so much more to it than that. First of all it puts your team 2:30 minutes ahead in farming, if we're being specific. No, not 30 seconds for each champion, 2:30 for the whole team, because it also includes support and jungle, who generally get less farm.
You are just completely wrong in this statement. So I generalized saying that 3 out of 5 people get the same amount of farm in one wave if they last hit well as when they kill a tower. Jungle can actually get the same amount if they are actively farming the jungle, so 4 out of 5. Yes, of course it benefits the support a little more since they aren't getting any CS, but that by and large is not a huge factor.

It in no way puts your team 2:30 minutes ahead, because jungle and minions from three different lanes are spawning at the same time. It does not take 2 minutes and 30 seconds for 150x5 worth of minions and jungle creeps to spawn, it takes approximately 30, maybe add on a little time to the average for the support. So far, you are only proving your ignorance on the game, not mine.

Quote:
Not only that, but it gives you map control. It makes it harder for the enemy to ward all gank paths, harder to protect map objectives, basically it makes it easier for the team who took the tower, to be aggressive. Whether they will be aggressive is completely up to them, and their understanding of the game. But from what I've seen, most players instinctively go to gank other lanes, steal the enemy jungle, etc.
You are not correct here either. After a lane loses a tower, especially top or bottom, it becomes infinitely more easier for that person to farm the lane. They simply need to get their lane into a slow push back towards their base, and they can farm many, many waves at far less risk than if they were still in the middle of the map with their first tower up. Stopping someone from farming at this point is infinitely more harder, as you double the distance to get back to safety of one of your own towers to try to stop him, and all other lanes + their jungle are further up the map than you, making it easier for them to cut you off on any escape route.

Quote:
If you're playing for blue team and you take the purple middle or bottom tower, you now have a much better control of the dragon. That's just one of the effects it has. If the purple team keeps their lane pushed far on their side (and if they're last hitting they can't do that for long) then blue team can just go grab the dragon and the purple's blue buff, as the purple team will be slower to react to such things because they'll be further from the objective if they don't push.
Admittedly middle towers have less of an impact as the distance is shorter, so the risk vs reward is higher for killing them. However, the tower being up or down does not have a great effect on dragon control on any kind of organized team, as it has a consistent spawn rate and players will know when it's up regardless of their map control or vision. Teams get there, the tower isn't going to help them get dragon.

Quote:
You treat last hitting as if every player in this game can do it perfectly, and gets 100% of the minions all the time. That is only true for the very best of the best, and only when they're completely outlaning the enemy.
Right, when doing an analysis of risk and rewards, it makes sense to compare the potential gold a player could receive for doing one thing, and the potential gold they would receive for doing another. Just as leaving lane for a gank can result in 300 gold, 0 gold, or some sort of middle assist gold, you are potentially missing a full minion wave as well, whether or not the player could last hit every single one is a complete variable not valuable to the analysis. It's simply a comparison of what is provided to the player by the game potentially if they do this or that, then realizing what the game mechanics present as the highest reward with the lowest risk. When we look at that, we can see the game mechanics as they stand now make it so passively last hitting is by far the safest and most consistent way to become powerful late game.

Quote:
The tower hits still granting minion gold is also pretty weird. You want to encourage pushing, then take away the only big benefit it gives early game? The whole point of pushing early game is that the enemy can not farm as well under a turret. And then you'd give the gold to their whole team to boot? I just can't understand your thought process here. Even at a 75% rate, that would be pretty bad.
Except you completely leave out the other mechanics that would be at play here, like the fact that you are getting minion gold * 0.75x / 5, and your opponent is getting minion gold * 1.25x, meaning for every single minion killed at this point they are pulling further and further ahead.

Quote:
The same lack of aggression in the early game would still be there in your model. Just with less harassing and more straight up pushing and minion wave clearing. Assuming minion aggro hurts the same way in the early game. Unless you want the minions to completely ignore the champions, and just make it a PvP arena?
Why? Pushing someone out of lane or killing them is still just as effect as a strategy as it was before, there's just an added benefit now to also push your minion waves as well, which there currently is not. It only opens up more options for aggression, and more choices for the strategic, knowledgeable player.

Quote:
I think making a game mode like you suggest with a laning phase but no last hitting is a huge waste of time. It would just be a PvP arena, where you arbitrarily split the team up, just because there's a limited number of spots for income.
Uhhh, I haven't lessened the spots for income. This is how the mode currently works too. I don't even know what your point is here anymore, you are just rambling. Whether you have to last hit the minions to receive gold or not, there are still limited spots for income, and part of a team balance is figuring out how to divvy that.

Quote:
On a map like Summoner's Rift, you need to be skilled at both acquiring and denying resources to get ahead. Your suggestion would pretty much eliminate the skill requirement for acquiring resources, or at least make acquiring them incredibly passive.
I agree with your statement, but I still think that can exist without last hitting. In my particular scenario, lane control becomes the skill requirement for acquiring resources, in place of last hitting. It's just a different method of winning your lane, and one that doesn't require a mechanical and boring process to execute, which is the goal.

There are certainly other ways to solve it too, as I've stated numerous times, including in the .pdf


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Krusiv

Senior Member

01-25-2012

Yeah let's remove all mechanical skills from the game. That will make it more fun and exciting right? You want fun and exciting then go play Dominion.


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HolyExLxF

Senior Member

01-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
You sir, are an idiot... there's no other way to put it delicately, sorry.

Ad hominems zzzz. I'll concede to calling my opinion on your opinion a fact incorrect (and a bit of a straw man), but, from your posts, the crux of your argument stems from that you think this game being mechanical is a bad thing. And I mean that, without last hitting, League is left with very few mechanics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
League of Legends from a single player stand point is infinitely more simple, but it's balanced solely around team play, and it takes a different kind of skill to be able to coordinate with 4 peers and execute battles at the right times and well to pull off the wins. This is the kind of skill that should separate the pros from the newbs, and does to a certain extent right now, but it's clouded with the mechanical skills, such as last hitting to become more powerful, that have yet to be streamlined.
You're not describing a MOBA anymore, more like a PvP arena with a bunch of useless ****ing around ("farming" gold). League basically has that in Dominion.


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McPummi

Senior Member

01-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Again, idiots stating things as fact when they are purely opinion. Do you understand what a fact is? Something you can back up with no dispute. 2 + 2 = 4 is a fact. The reasons that I, and many other people don't like last hitting, in your OPINION, is not a fact. You write a sentence, claim it's a fact, and expect people to value it as true. You sir, are an idiot... there's no other way to put it delicately, sorry.

I played Starcraft, Brood War, and Starcraft II... I am fully aware of the progression. They streamlined Starcraft II, recognizing the mechanical things that users could do without, while focusing on improving things that help the user control their army, micro, and actually compete in the meat of a battle. Stracraft is most definitely a most complicated game from a 1v1 standpoint, but it fails in balance at any kind of team arena, and nobody takes it seriously there. Essentially the more people in the match, the more ridiculous the balance becomes.

League of Legends from a single player stand point is infinitely more simple, but it's balanced solely around team play, and it takes a different kind of skill to be able to coordinate with 4 peers and execute battles at the right times and well to pull off the wins. This is the kind of skill that should separate the pros from the newbs, and does to a certain extent right now, but it's clouded with the mechanical skills, such as last hitting to become more powerful, that have yet to be streamlined.

People who think the skill cap was lowered from Brood War to Starcraft II are the same kind of simpletons who can't understand how good players would still pull ahead with more interesting mechanics than last hitting. Just because they make certain things EASIER to perform in a game, doesn't mean that good players will still not dominate. If good players do not have to focus on one thing, they will transfer their energy and knowledge to another area to dominate their opponent. If sitting back in lane and racking up last hits becomes less of a focus from game mechanics, pro players will develop more dynamic and interesting ways to win matches, just as Starcraft II battles are improved by more control groups, not having to manually tell newly trained workers what to do at base, etc, etc.
What you want is clearly a completely different game. Having minions, without them being an important part of the game, is pointless. Removing last hitting makes them just cosmetic cannon fodder. If you have no minions at all, it's getting to a point where the game is in another genre completely.

The biggest problem I have is, I don't see what you're really trying to accomplish? Just the removal of last hitting? Why? It's a good, visible measure, of how well you're performing in a lane. You, and some other people I've seen supporting this, treat it like it's just a reflex. A simple thing, requiring no thought, skill, or effort. If it's so simple, why remove it?

There is actually a lot of strategy and effort involved in controlling your lane, and most of it comes from deciding when and how to kill the minions, to optimize your reward while minimizing your risk. If you're no longer "forced" to hit the minions at some point, it becomes very boring. There's nothing to do, unless you can initiate a fight. If the other team has a weaker lane, you just zone them out. If you have a weaker lane, you just get zoned. Nobody wants to risk anything, because losing a tower is such a huge disadvantage. Last hitting forces some movement, and gives you something to do, when you can't initiate a fight.