Sejuani and female champs

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WrentheFaceless

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DesiesLonewolf View Post
I have a response that I think will make many people see OP's point.

Hilde, Soul Caliber 4.

Hilde is the most attractive character in those games. Even when in her princess dress skin, not only is she modest, but she is proportioned more like a warrior. A smaller bust, lean but muscular legs, etc. Nobody is saying that girls in games shouldn't be attractive. But, there are plenty of examples of attractive women in games that aren't rail-thin with huge boobies. Alyx Vance, Elena Fisher, the new version of Lara Croft.

The modern take on the attractive woman is different. Riot is living in the past on this one.
I would prefer the over sexualized, curvy woman that video games have over the 'real world' annorexic, cocaine snorting 'supermodel' look that they're trying to push on women.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaddar View Post
basic point being, as all drawings are by definition male, you can play around more easily with the features (think of mundo and fiddlesticks), but the room to modify female features is a lot more limited, because you could even end up with somethin aking to, yes, Ezreal
This is a feature of our social psyche that assumes everything is male until we find out it is female. When you see a strange animal, you call it a "he." When Riot designs a monster, they always call it, "he." Everything in our head is male by default; it shows how male-focused our minds are. I hope in the future it can change - either people will see more gender-neutrally or take more time to ask what *** something is.


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Groxxy

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
Good point! Here is an interesting post on "boobplate" by an actual armorer. Section 4 goes over a plate they made and the practical issues it has. http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fant...and-lady-bits/
If what this says is true, should Pantheon's Heartseeker Strike Crit Leona for all of her health?
Where the realism riot!? jk


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srsizzy

Senior Member

01-13-2012

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Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!
I am a little ashamed of this post as it wholeheartedly avoids the reality of the situation.

Most of the artists designing champs are straight males. I'm a non-straight male, but being a male, I know that if I'm even the slightest bit horny when thinking up a fictional character for a story, that man is going to fit my view of what I want to have *** with. There are many, many, many straight male artists that default to drawing women because they (like all men) are horny, and if they do draw a woman, it will be one they want to have *** with. In fact, I'm convinced any *** scene in any story or film was written because the writer was horny and didn't just jerk off -- the same holds true for artists.

From everything I've seen in the red posts of this thread, this isn't being admitted to, and it's really pathetic how many game developers don't just admit what they're doing. There are just as many female forms as male -- stocky, small, flat-chested, curvy (and Leona is just BARELY "curvy"), etc.

That being said: Riven, Annie, Cait, Irelia, Karma, Kayle, and Lux are, in my opinion, the only female human champs that don't look like underwear models.

No one is going to look at a piece of art that's also a nice piece of @ss and say, "Oh, that's bad, let's not make a champion like that." I'm not really upset about this issue, I honestly don't care because I'm not attracted to women (and Graves, the hottest man in the League, was released), but it'd be cool if game artists learned to be candid.


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Maikky

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DesiesLonewolf View Post
I have a response that I think will make many people see OP's point.

Hilde, Soul Caliber 4.

Hilde is the most attractive character in those games. Even when in her princess dress skin, not only is she modest, but she is proportioned more like a warrior. A smaller bust, lean but muscular legs, etc. Nobody is saying that girls in games shouldn't be attractive. But, there are plenty of examples of attractive women in games that aren't rail-thin with huge boobies. Alyx Vance, Elena Fisher, the new version of Lara Croft.

The modern take on the attractive woman is different. Riot is living in the past on this one.
Your lying to yourself, Ivy .


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Raptoreyes

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elitewarriors View Post
Why can't Sejuani just be more like this picture? You can give her muscles and still make her clearly feminine. Just look up muscle women.

I'd also like to say I agree with a lot of people saying that the sexually pleasing isn't as sexually pleasing any more. I'm not saying GO BIG! But I'm saying maybe a little bit more women to love could be good :P. It's almost like I see nothing but this skinny lingerie model all the time that... it's not as appealing. If that makes sense.
That model goes past "not as appealing" all the way to chromosome check time. On the other hand Tyrendimere has a brother as your picture proves.... great!


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Bekkal

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddalee View Post
He's talking about the -original- Metroid for NES. And why do you think it's called the Zero Suit? Yeah, it's full-skinned, alright.
I'm guessing you have no idea what the Zero Suit is.

Hint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zero_Suit_Samus_Other_M.png


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maikky View Post
Your lying to yourself, Ivy .
Talim, and it isn't even close.


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Hikija

Member

01-13-2012

Protip: Girls have boobs


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WrentheFaceless

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maikky View Post
Your lying to yourself, Ivy .
I would agree that SCV Ivy is probably her best incarnation, because its more tasteful than her other outfits have been, but still pretty sexy.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Jaguar View Post
As a side note, this reminds me of the Stir around Suckerpunch. The Females were all sensuous, but if anyone really watched the movie, they soon realised that the girls could have been naked and it wouldn't have mattered, It's the image of a physically strong and elegant women, a graceful, Beautiful (according to society, which i agree) yet swift and deadly, superhuman, almost. Of course, people with a not so level head only think that producers make characters that are sexy, to be sexy.

It's much more then that, and if people really thought what these champions stood for, I would think they would realise that the champions, sensious, are also deadly and portray an image of a CHAMPION, an achieveable figure, but also a superhuman figure.
Suckerpunch claims to be feminist because the women are capable; but why do capable women have to be strippers and slave-*****s in schoolgirl outfits? Why do powerful women have to be sexualized? It's to balance out their power with a lack of power. Good thing Suckerpunch was released so close to Hannah and Salt.