Sejuani and female champs

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BeardRex

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loc View Post
So I was going to post something in another thread, but it got closed before I managed to. It was essentially about how the OP was disappointed that Sejuani doesn't look strong and wears (relatively) little clothing. But I felt like this was a point worth making, and so I'm just going to put it out there.

People were responding with comments like, "You're expecting realism out of a fantasy game?" and generally responded very negatively (which I found completely baffling), but in general I think they were missing the point the OP was trying to make. It's not that it's unrealistic that she's so small. Tryndamere really couldn't swing that sword with one hand like he does realistically. The problem is that this is yet another female champ that has the exact same body type as practically every other (adult human) female champ, that body type being thin, frail, and busty. The skimpy clothes is just gravy to this insult, but seeing as she's a barbarian-type lady and riding a giant boar I think we can let that one go.

Now, I like Sejuani's design, from what I've seen. She's got a unique weapon among the champs (keeping in line with one of my favorite features of LoL, that almost no champions share the same weapon), she looks good, she's got an awesome boar mount (also awesome and distinct in it's own way from the other champs). But I, similarly to the person who posted that other thread, think that she should look strong, and that's a very reasonable thing to want. She must be a strong lady to lift her flail and shield, or even ride her mount. But she doesn't look it. None of the female champs look particularly strong. But the male champs are not only more varied, but their body types support their character. Strong warrior champs are big. Makes sense, right? Casters tend to be thinner. There's a lot of variety among the male champs in terms of body type. But all the female champs are just lingerie models, regardless of the size of their weapon or the weight of their armor (I'm looking at you and your plate mail heels, Leona).

This is a problem with most games, and while I love League of Legends, they're very guilty of falling into this trend. Men are varied and appropriately proportioned, women are thin and busting out of their tops regardless of who they are or what they do. I really wish Riot would change this. Their designs are fun and interesting and varied (and only seem to get better and better, go Riot!), and it's completely within their power to change this particular aspect of character design, but they never seem to. It's hugely disappointing, and there's really no need for it.

These popped up on Kotaku just recently, and while they're not written for the same reason I'm commenting on this, they're about the same issue, and definitely worth a read.

http://kotaku.com/5868595/nerds-and-male-privilege
http://kotaku.com/5873885/nerds-and-male-privilege-part-2-deconstructing-the-arguments
Those kind of articles always make me furious. The second article is even worse than the first. I don't find half-naked video-game characters as sexy as barbies. Meaning I don't think about them sexually at all.

And the authors dismissal of the beefcake male hero argument just shows their complete ignorance. I know plenty of female gamers who find Batman and Kratos sexy. Just because he cherry-picked non-beefcake male characters (david bowie... uh everyone finds him sexy), doesn't mean it's the standard.

I'm fat, should I be offended that the only fat male characters in video games are comic relief? No. Because ideals have been ideals since the start of civilization. Do women get mad that statues of goddesses are mostly naked and have the perfect female form? NO. NEVER. Modern fantasy is modern mythology. Live with it. Let it go.


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Ben Caxton

Senior Member

01-13-2012

I understand how limiting it must be (in all champ design) to create characters with distinctive models in game.

However, I feel there are multiple female body types that could be considered "unique", even at a distance.

They could even still be attractive.

One example is creating a champ with the idealized female form from the renaissance era (like the "Birth of Venus"). They could dress her up in a toga and give her a long spear like Athena.


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Myrkr Lokidottir

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Senior Member

01-13-2012

I'm waiting and hoping for more champions, male and female, who have stunningly gorgeous faces, necks, and maybe even shoulders, but then as you go down their body they get more horrifying/monster like in looks. Somewhat like Cassiopeia, but even MORE SO.

Hope I can look forward to some of these in the future.

Also, imo (woman posting here), Graves is one of the best looking male champs in terms of classic skins. Rugged Garen is a very good looking male skin as well, along with Dreadknight Garen and Demonblade Tryndamere. Points also to the Chinese classic skin for Twisted Fate.

(And sound department, I love how Nasus and Nocturne sound, in terms of the males. Sona is freaking awesome from the females!)


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Quintessence

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!
hence why people have trouble telling if kayle is indeed a female or not.


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TheButtonmen

Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
I feel pretty strongly about this and am rather happy that our game has a good number of female characters who break out of traditional "male gaze mold" (Karma, Poppy, Leona, Tristana, Riven, and Shyvana are pretty good examples). Leona is my favorite example of this, as she's a strong female character who really looks like she's meant for battle.
...What?

She's wearing no armor, a dress and has go**** heels on.

I don't think you understand what it really means to break out of the male gaze mold....


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MileyCyrusBAKING

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Excellent points!
We get that people want more plate armored and trenchcoated women.

But what about sexying up the ones we already have!!
WHERE IS BIKINI IRELIA


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Saanx

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Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernkastar View Post
I see where you are coming from, but can we PLEASE have a handsome (not overly muscular or aged), skin revealing, male young adult with some biologically gravitation characteristics? I want some male love in this department of matter.

I don't care too much about Riot idealizing female bodies for fan service, but I'm concerned that there's none in terms of males. I know the vast majority of players are straight males, but just ONE would suffice.

Or even a new, attractive Ezreal skin with a different haircut.
Except Beach Singy, Ezreal and THE awesome Taric? o.O

No Edwards please. Please. Please. We already have a sparkling champ.


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Perynz

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Geez why do people find busty broads such a problem.


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Raptoreyes

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by General Farsight View Post
I understand your point, and I agree with it to some extent. However, I fear a lot of people simply complain about their appearance and either forget or simply ignore their backstories and personalities. When I play with Caitlyn, Janna, Vayne or whatever other female character, just by hearing their quotes it's noticeable that they aren't simply eyecandy. The way they dress should not be that important.

Once again this does not seem to be a problem with male characters, since Tryndamere can go around shirtless without anyone complaining. Everyone knows that he is a badass barbarian king. Why can't the female characters receive a similar treatment? Why must they be simply defined by what they wear?
Ahhh their is the rub. Its often overlooked that the same female can look VERY different when dressed differently. More so then men can. Indeed a man is more likely to be recognized by those who are casually familiar with him no matter what clothes he is dressed in. Women on the other hand can almost change their identity with regards to interactions with other people by simply changing clothes, hair and makeup styles. The visual information a women puts out seems to define their identity more and aid in their agenda more so much so that even their mothers might not realize its them when wearing out of character clothes and makeup combos.

For some reason men have a very hard time trying on other social roles by changing clothes and effects. This is key and one of the reasons men find it so hard to bounce back if they find themselves in a social role that has become discredited or irrelevant. Try as they might to re-label themselves, they are "stuck being who they are" wither or not the rolesuits their interests at any given time. Female beauty tends to short circuit the facial recognition circuits in all humans to and extent allowing great "role flexibility" for women that men simply do not have.

This is one of the reasons ugly "aka more "manish" looking women" complain about female beauty as it is conceptualized by both men and other women. These attacks are pretty much falures because beauty cuts to the heart of mens sexual desires (hardwired desires as female beauty is deeply biological in origin) while male beauty concepts vary widely from society to society (or did in the era before Westren culture became global culture for all intents and purposes).

The other thing to remember is male attractive traits are based upon the ability to collect resources by the perceived besting of enemies or environment (or by the extremely deft use of language to get other people to act against their own interests to fulfill your own) . Desirable female traits on the other hand tend to inhibit action or reduce the extremity of actions taken. This may in-part be due to the fact that females take on mix of adult and child like traits (child traits inhibit aggressive thinking both in observers and those that have those traits) but males that are successful at breeding tend to take on a dominance of adult traits over child like ones.

Males still live in a world of scarcity as far as being successful enough to procreate with your "first through third choice mate" is concerned. Men are (mostly biologically) attracted nearly every female they meet who lies within certain comparatively broad health/age/body shape constraints over their life time: most of whom will not feel anything but annoyance about their advances. Women will feel nothing sexual whatsoever about most men they encounter except a very small minority of those they meet that meet all of a much longer list of personality, body, social constraints that are almost completely social in nature.

This is likely why most people do not think its implausible for a super model type women to become everything from a politician to a courtesan to a warrior. Why the young men who play video games don't laugh out loud that a women "with arms like that, could not swing that weapon". Female beauty changes or interrupts the normal flow of value or capability judgments, at a very early stage in the human thought process.

In short let the boys and girls play with sexy female toons without all this tired femi-nazi rhetoric. We are dealing with very deep and old parts of the human brain here that predate the relatively new cerebral cortex, especially in regards to biologically hardwired female beauty concepts. Talk all you want but survival of the fitest often means survival of the prettiest to some degree and those who are winning won't listen to the complaints of the losers to the extent that it changes behavior in any but a minority of individuals.

Beauty is not an action that can be criticized nor does it reduce or improve quality of life. Attacking somebody for liking sexualized female models, only drives the practice underground and makes it stealthy and silent. It would be better for all concerned if we stopped this neo puritanical feminism and allowed men to be men and criticized them less for their sexual choices which due to Darwinian evolution are mainly range of the moment focused and pleasure gratification focused. This may be unpalatable for those who think male female roles should be focused around the raising of children and "long term relationships". Some people just want to have fun..... stop getting in the way and let them.


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Saanx

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Senior Member

01-13-2012

Also, only after a year when I looked through all skins I figured Kayle is a she.

I mean, it's pretty male-ish name (for us who's english isn't native language) as well as resembling sort of Kenny of South Park.

OMG who killed Kayle.