Thornmail; Auto-attackers vs AD Casters

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UltrosTheOctopus

Senior Member

11-22-2011

Yi, Miss Fortune, Ashe, Twitch, Tristana, Caitlyn for example, are less desirable already in dominion, and are punished much more by thornmail than AD casters. People are much less likely to build thornmail vs AD casters like wukong, pantheon, yorick, and riven since the thornmail passive does not affect damage from their abilities that do a majority of their damage outside of the damage reduction from armor.

Thornmail needs to be brought down on the % magic damage returned or applicable to champion abilities because carries are the easiest to counter in dominion solely because of thornmail. AD caster damage also needs to be brought down.

It's frustrating if you're a carry and you're attacking someone like wukong, who is naturally tanky with built in damage, with a frozen mallet, atma's, thornmail, and they can kill you in a few seconds because you do 800 damage in thornmail to yourself.


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MVpmack

Senior Member

11-22-2011

Get magic resist?


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Madra

Senior Member

11-22-2011

31 points of armor penetration, 10% armor penetration from talents, and the crystal scar aura... it's a little bit too much in the favor of champions like Wukong, Talon and Pantheon.


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Geryth

Senior Member

11-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltrosTheOctopus View Post
Yi, Miss Fortune, Ashe, Twitch, Tristana, Caitlyn for example, are less desirable already in dominion, and are punished much more by thornmail than AD casters. People are much less likely to build thornmail vs AD casters like wukong, pantheon, yorick, and riven since the thornmail passive does not affect damage from their abilities that do a majority of their damage outside of the damage reduction from armor.

Thornmail needs to be brought down on the % magic damage returned or applicable to champion abilities because carries are the easiest to counter in dominion solely because of thornmail. AD caster damage also needs to be brought down.

It's frustrating if you're a carry and you're attacking someone like wukong, who is naturally tanky with built in damage, with a frozen mallet, atma's, thornmail, and they can kill you in a few seconds because you do 800 damage in thornmail to yourself.
You're just trying to bring SR mentality into Dominion. AA AD Champs like Yi, Miss Fortune, Ashe etc. thrive in summoners rift by being able to farm, and become power houses by out-building their opponents. In dominion, gold dispersion is always withing 1.5-2k gold, so everyone is pretty much building evenly, even those who are not doing well and losing.

What this does is it exemplifies the mid-game power that bruisers get, and the quick income of gold makes it easy to counter build. The "late game" comes too late for the champions you mentioned to really shine and have the penetration / kiting / lifesteal to overcome frozen heart and thornmail.

It's not thornmail that's the problem, it's the whole new mechanics of the map with a lack of laning, zoning, and kiting that those champions can normally pull off to get ahead. But is that really a problem though? I like the map because I finally get free of the humdrum "tanky dps top, jungler, ap mid, support ad ranged bottom", and champions I love like pantheon and heimerdinger become viable (And champions I don't like, like eve and twitch). It's a give and take.


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Stimuz

Senior Member

11-22-2011

This is what I've been trying to say. AD casters need some sort of penalty on this map. Any mana issues they normally would have after blowing their load nonstop isn't an issue due to increased regen and low base mana costs while AP casters still bottom out pretty often in addition to most other problems. There aren't enough bans right now to take care of the 3 biggest AD caster problems, wukong, talon, pantheon.


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Tarnace

Senior Member

11-22-2011

as twitch I buy this regularly, try being AD and killing a twitch with that on - its rough


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Kattel01

Junior Member

11-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarnace View Post
as twitch I buy this regularly, try being AD and killing a twitch with that on - its rough
+1

unless i'm vs. a very ap heavy team i almost always prioritize this for early-mid. it used to be a situational but has made it onto my core list. if im outmatched by an ad caster i simply change my situational item to reflect...or switch lanes.


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Elealar

Senior Member

11-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geryth View Post
You're just trying to bring SR mentality into Dominion. AA AD Champs like Yi, Miss Fortune, Ashe etc. thrive in summoners rift by being able to farm, and become power houses by out-building their opponents. In dominion, gold dispersion is always withing 1.5-2k gold, so everyone is pretty much building evenly, even those who are not doing well and losing.

What this does is it exemplifies the mid-game power that bruisers get, and the quick income of gold makes it easy to counter build. The "late game" comes too late for the champions you mentioned to really shine and have the penetration / kiting / lifesteal to overcome frozen heart and thornmail.

It's not thornmail that's the problem, it's the whole new mechanics of the map with a lack of laning, zoning, and kiting that those champions can normally pull off to get ahead. But is that really a problem though? I like the map because I finally get free of the humdrum "tanky dps top, jungler, ap mid, support ad ranged bottom", and champions I love like pantheon and heimerdinger become viable (And champions I don't like, like eve and twitch). It's a give and take.
AD Carries still counter bruisers (and are countered by assassins). Nothing has changed in that regard. Though I can't really take Yi as AD carry seriously; that champion is an assassin through-and-through. It's the same as on SR. Midgame teamfights, the team that can keep the carry alive wins. If your team can keep your AD carry alive, you'll win on Dom, too (which obviously makes ADs that are capable of kiting without help strong).


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UltrosTheOctopus

Senior Member

11-22-2011

You don't see people scrambling to ban MF or Ashe over Talon, Pantheon, Yorick, Wukong. Isn't that sending a obvious message? Almost every game I see with a Pantheon, they are #1 with the most kills and Yorick is an immovable object bot lane unless he's overwhelmed by 3 champs. Each AD caster has their own problems, but a common theme is they're getting too many armor pen bonuses to make their abilities do more damage than they should be doing.


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Hugs From Momma

Senior Member

11-22-2011

As said above, it's almost all midgame, with small gold spreads. You can't get crazy farmed carrys until late, even then, they won't be as overwhelming as on SR. Assassins thrive in small 2v2 and 3v3 situations, they dump damage onto one target, and it's suddenly a 2v3.

The low damage and short range of the towers is also a culprit here, as there's no place for carries and APs to hide and poke while waiting reinforcement. The enemy simply runs under the tower, kills them, and caps.


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