Switching from AP Carries

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13eakers

Member

12-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwistWrist View Post
You build Ghostblade for the active. If you feel you need an attack speed increase and move speed increase, then you go Ghostblade. Otherwise, you get a Brutalizer and stop. Many tanky DPS champs will get an early Brutalizer and sell it late game for better items.



If you are melting as Irelia, then you probably didn't build her tanky enough. What is your build?
So I can see the use of Ghostblade, however I feel like most games I will stick with the Brutalizer as you said, because I usually get Randuin's Omen, giving me a slow to chase if needed and more utility in team fights.

As for my build, I start with regrowth pendant. I used to build this into philo stone, and this gave me good results, but should I save this for Warmog's? I then get heart of gold and boots on next back, or mercury treads if I've been doing well and so have enough gold. I'll probably build Warmog's (assuming I kept that pendant) here. I start going situationally here. If they have a LOT of magic damage I'll get Negatron asap here then build Force of Nature. Otherwise, I'll get Chain Vest then I'll probably build Atma's, since the armor and damage are great. Regardless I like to finish my Randuin's Omen from that Heart of gold somewhere here. If I think that I'm doing alright I like to buy Brutalizer here. Then I'll look again. If they have a Yi or Trynd (or another dps, depending) doing well I'll get Thornmail. If they have Magic dealers who are doing decently, or one that is doing well, I'll still probably get FoN since I find the movement to be extremely useful. I think I'll probably buy Ghostblade here to finish.


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

12-31-2011

Brutalizer is an early game rush.

For Irelia, I would either go Sheen or Wit's End though for early damage. I prefer early Sheen and a Frozen Mallet + Atma's. Don't need Omen to chase with Frozen Mallet. Your Q applies a slow, your autoattack applies a slow, and your E applies slow/stun. Don't build Thorn Mail unless you are behind. FoN is fine. Finish Trinity Force sometime in there and finish with Infinity Edge.


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13eakers

Member

12-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwistWrist View Post
Brutalizer is an early game rush.

For Irelia, I would either go Sheen or Wit's End though for early damage. I prefer early Sheen and a Frozen Mallet + Atma's. Don't need Omen to chase with Frozen Mallet. Your Q applies a slow, your autoattack applies a slow, and your E applies slow/stun. Don't build Thorn Mail unless you are behind. FoN is fine. Finish Trinity Force sometime in there and finish with Infinity Edge.
Oops, I'm an idiot. Yes, I always get sheen, and I'd probably pick it up right after mercury treads in most games. Then Warmog's, etc. And triforce somewhere in there.

I see where the FM is an amazing item. I should pick it up almost all games. I can see a slot were instead of getting Heart of Gold I instead just pick up the ruby crystal then mercury treads then sheen - phage - FM - warmog's etc. Dropping thronmail in favor of trinity force and Ghostblade/brutilizer in favor of infinity.

However this brings another problem. My end items will look like this: Warmogs, FM, Mercury, Trinity Force, Atma's, and FoN/Infinity. Which should I get for my sixth item? I like the movement from FoN, but between all the items I would have a great crit chance and with plus 50% damage infinity is a great item. Tons of MR on that FoN too. Where should my build go to resolve this?


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

12-31-2011

I wouldn't get Frozen Mallet and Warmog. One or the other. FoN is great. Infinity is a strong last item with Atma's and Trinity Force.

Basically, I just described the tanky DPS metagolem. Sort of like how almost all AD carries can go Infinity Edge/Bloodthister/Phantom Dancer/Last Whisper, almost all tanky DPS champs can go TriForce, Frozen Mallet or Warmogs, Atma's, FoN, Infinity Edge.

Some champs like Garen would replace the TriForce with a Brutalizer.


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13eakers

Member

12-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwistWrist View Post
I wouldn't get Frozen Mallet and Warmog. One or the other. FoN is great. Infinity is a strong last item with Atma's and Trinity Force.

Basically, I just described the tanky DPS metagolem. Sort of like how almost all AD carries can go Infinity Edge/Bloodthister/Phantom Dancer/Last Whisper, almost all tanky DPS champs can go TriForce, Frozen Mallet or Warmogs, Atma's, FoN, Infinity Edge.

Some champs like Garen would replace the TriForce with a Brutalizer.
That sounds good. What I'll do is complete philostone like I used to do because it will pay itself off and the mp5 is extremely useful, and forget about Warmog's. Build pretty much like I said before and then sell philo to get Infinity edge for the last item.

So here is the build I'm looking at (or something like it): Regrowth Pendant > On first b buy Mercury Treads and Ruby Crystal > Sheen > Upgrade to Phage > Frozen Mallet > Trinity Force > Atma's > FoN > Sell Philo then Infinity Edge

My final items will be: [Mercury Treads - Triforce - FM - FoN - Atma's - Infinity Edge]

See anything wrong with the items or the way I get them?


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Yourinnate

Senior Member

12-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwistWrist View Post
Brutalizer is an early game rush.

For Irelia, I prefer early Sheen and a Frozen Mallet + Atma's. Don't need Omen to chase with Frozen Mallet. Finish Trinity Force sometime in there...
Do you really build Trinity Force AND Frozen Mallet? If I went the FratMa's route instead of AtMog's, I'd go sheen at most. Everything else on Trinity Force is really useful for Irelia, don't get me wrong, but FratMa's + Sheen + Wit's End ends up being about the same general build as Atmog's + Trin Force + Wit's End but for 2k less. That 2k less makes a big difference though, as you aren't looking at Trin's crit or ASPD which I personally think are big factors in Irelia. It does open you up to making a zeal into a pd, but then you're really getting away from the off tank part of irelia.


Throw all of that aside though, and just follow http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=8264 . You aren't really going to come across a more detailed guide for Irelia. It explains all the items worth building, and why/when you'd build them.


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13eakers

Member

12-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yourinnate View Post
Do you really build Trinity Force AND Frozen Mallet? If I went the FratMa's route instead of AtMog's, I'd go sheen at most. Everything else on Trinity Force is really useful for Irelia, don't get me wrong, but FratMa's + Sheen + Wit's End ends up being about the same general build as Atmog's + Trin Force + Wit's End but for 2k less. That 2k less makes a big difference though, as you aren't looking at Trin's crit or ASPD which I personally think are big factors in Irelia. It does open you up to making a zeal into a pd, but then you're really getting away from the off tank part of irelia.


Throw all of that aside though, and just follow http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=8264 . You aren't really going to come across a more detailed guide for Irelia. It explains all the items worth building, and why/when you'd build them.
Actually I consider Triforce to be an incredible item on Irelia in many ways. Every stat gives Irelia an advantage and the only concern I have is that the slow on trin is a total wash with FM. As you say I might consider buying sheen then delaying the Triforce to buy other things first, but if the build is completed it is obviously better than Sheen.

I dislike Wits end compared to other items. I know I should be taking the advice of others on this forum, but taking wits end removes the possibility of taking FoN, which is really a great item. Wits end adds some MR and ASPD, but the magic damage is only on autoattacks with no use on abillities, where there are AD items that could be taken instead. I will take it into consideration as I'm sure there will be times when I want to use it.

I dislike some of the items on that guide, but overall it is pretty good. My build as it was before I took out Warmog's looks a shocking amount like the armor oriented version of his late game, minus mercury treads. However, I feel that FM outweighs Warmog's because of the guaranteed slow and still a significant amount of HP. With FoN, the Hp5 on Warmog's in not as vital. Also, I think that Mercury treads are better on Irelia most of the time, because the tenacity synergizes well with her passive. Ninja boots are cheaper, but I feel that the tenacity outweighs, and I try not to go toe to toe with the dps champs where dodge makes the biggest difference.


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Yourinnate

Senior Member

12-31-2011

Boots on an offtank or tank should ALWAYS be situational depending on the team you are facing.

Merc treads are great with her passive, but if the team only has 1 or 2 cc spells, than it is a wash. If the team has 4 or 5 then it is golden.

I believe you may be looking at irelia a little awkwardly. She is an auto attack champion. Her damage comes from using the W active then swinging for the true damage. The ASPD and Magic Damage that Wit's End offers synergizes with W way too much to pass up. She doesn't benefit from AD as much as other auto attack champions because the damage isn't coming from how hard she is hitting, but how often she is hitting.

FoN is a great item, and there's really no reason not to build BOTH that AND wit's end. Those two items alone give you all the MR you could ever want, even against a heavy AP team. Where as if you don't build wit's end, you will find yourself build FoN and Guardian Angel, or Banshee's Veil.



Generally, my successful games with Irelia go something like this in terms of items:

Doran's shield > Base Boots > Sheen > Wit's End > Finish Boots (depends on other team) > Finish Trinity Force (taking Phage first) > Then either Warmog's/Atma's if I'm snowballing (getting a lot of kills) or Armor/MR items if I'm dying more than killing.

Armor/MR items, like boots, should be situational each game. You should get them every game, but the enemy's team composition and the items they're building dictate which defensive items you should be getting.


One note I wanted to make in how my build differs from the guide I offered is my choice to go Sheen first instead of his Phage first. I choose to go Sheen first because Sheen + W Active + Q'ing a caster minion = dead minion from full health. This helps farming purposes tremendously since I play normals with other people in their low to mid 20's, and I'm generally fighting my teammates for creep score.


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

12-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13eakers View Post
So here is the build I'm looking at (or something like it): Regrowth Pendant > On first b buy Mercury Treads and Ruby Crystal > Sheen > Upgrade to Phage > Frozen Mallet > Trinity Force > Atma's > FoN > Sell Philo then Infinity Edge

My final items will be: [Mercury Treads - Triforce - FM - FoN - Atma's - Infinity Edge]

See anything wrong with the items or the way I get them?
I think your merc threads are too early. Doesn't need to be rushed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yourinnate View Post
Do you really build Trinity Force AND Frozen Mallet? If I went the FratMa's route instead of AtMog's, I'd go sheen at most. Everything else on Trinity Force is really useful for Irelia, don't get me wrong, but FratMa's + Sheen + Wit's End ends up being about the same general build as Atmog's + Trin Force + Wit's End but for 2k less. That 2k less makes a big difference though, as you aren't looking at Trin's crit or ASPD which I personally think are big factors in Irelia. It does open you up to making a zeal into a pd, but then you're really getting away from the off tank part of irelia.


Throw all of that aside though, and just follow http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=8264 . You aren't really going to come across a more detailed guide for Irelia. It explains all the items worth building, and why/when you'd build them.
I go Sheen and Fratma's.

But after that...what am I going to build the Sheen into? Lich Bane? Even if the slow is pointless, Trinity Force still gives a crapload of useful stats. However, since I'm getting Frozen Mallet slows, I don't have be too worried about finishing the Trinity Force.

Honestly, I still think Wit's End is a situational item on Irelia. If I'm playing against a double AP, then okay, I'll go Wit's End. But against balanced damage teams, I would much rather have a Trinity Force late game than Wit's End.

I know people have been saying Wit's End is great on Irelia because you will max her true damage steroid first anyway. But honestly, assuming some idiot let's me autoattack them for the full duration of Irelia's steroid...I get 1.5 more attacks in that 6 seconds. Meh. Plus who is going to let me autoattack them for 6 straight seconds early game? The magic damage? Doesn't scale into lategame well. Isn't even super amazing early game since I probably don't have magic pen. I still much rather have a Sheen early game for harass and a Trinity Force lategame. So assuming I want to have Trinity Force...what am I going to cut? Atma's + Warmog/Frozen Mallet? Not happening. Force of Nature? I rather like it. Infinity Edge? Item is stupid strong with Atma's and Trinity Force.

Plus, I love me double Q's. Makes me feel way more mobile. Sheen procs (and later on, Trinity Force procs) make them a bit easier.


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13eakers

Member

01-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwistWrist View Post
I think your merc threads are too early. Doesn't need to be rushed.




I go Sheen and Fratma's.

But after that...what am I going to build the Sheen into? Lich Bane? Even if the slow is pointless, Trinity Force still gives a crapload of useful stats. However, since I'm getting Frozen Mallet slows, I don't have be too worried about finishing the Trinity Force.

Honestly, I still think Wit's End is a situational item on Irelia. If I'm playing against a double AP, then okay, I'll go Wit's End. But against balanced damage teams, I would much rather have a Trinity Force late game than Wit's End.

I know people have been saying Wit's End is great on Irelia because you will max her true damage steroid first anyway. But honestly, assuming some idiot let's me autoattack them for the full duration of Irelia's steroid...I get 1.5 more attacks in that 6 seconds. Meh. Plus who is going to let me autoattack them for 6 straight seconds early game? The magic damage? Doesn't scale into lategame well. Isn't even super amazing early game since I probably don't have magic pen. I still much rather have a Sheen early game for harass and a Trinity Force lategame. So assuming I want to have Trinity Force...what am I going to cut? Atma's + Warmog/Frozen Mallet? Not happening. Force of Nature? I rather like it. Infinity Edge? Item is stupid strong with Atma's and Trinity Force.

Plus, I love me double Q's. Makes me feel way more mobile. Sheen procs (and later on, Trinity Force procs) make them a bit easier.
I agree with Wits End vs. Triforce. But I ran a lot of theory crafting on the champion builder on League Craft. The Warmog adds +3k physical resistance while only reducing magic hp by 100. It costs 400 more and FoN gives +20 movespeed in end build. So I actually prefer Warmog's vs. Force of Nature.

But about the magic pen... You know how I said I was switching from AP carries? Them runes are expensive to replace...

Edit: Also, where would you recommend I get my boots then? I'm just accustomed to getting my tier two boots early because I like the speed.


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