Xin Zhao... beats Garen

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Matuk

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Senior Member

07-14-2010

Now, Xin Zhao isn't much like Garen. I will admit that, as I am an avid Garen player, despite how low tier he is. They have slightly different tool sets. But, if you look closer, you will notice a LOT of similarities.

Both have self-healing passives. Xin's works in battle. Garen's does not, but likely heals more.
Both are effective and have uses, but Garen's promotes a very passive lane. Since it only activates if he's hurt, it just means staying power so that he doesn't HAVE to blue pill to regen.
I'd call this a 50/50. Zhao's can be used during combat, especially late game team fights, but leaves him prone to harassment early if the passive can't keep up with the damage he takes.

Both have a skill to charge in. Xin Zhao's is arguably better, because he literally charges in. Garen just runs faster for 2 seconds and lets everybody near by know it with a loud sound effect.

Xin Zhao has an AOE slow and a knock-up. Garen has a Silence.
No need to say it, but Xin Zhao kinda wins. Only advantage is that Garen can shut down healers. However, Xin Zhao can COMPLETELY interrupt anybody. Knock ups are almost as good as stuns, or maybe exactly like a stun.
Garen also does not have slow without items. Which, btw, will stack with Zhao's ability slow anyways, so the point is moot.

Both have good defense-boosting skills. I have not played Xin enough to see how constant his defense boosts are, but since his ult causes it, I imagine it will always be up when needed.
Garen's requires you to get at least 70 last hits (on anything) for max rank 5. Not hard, but still bothersome. This just means Garen gets defensive earlier with good last-hitting skills.

Garen has Shield Wall. I don't think Xin has anything similar to this. Shield Wall becomes less effective, however, as you gain more armor/defense, because that 35% reduction will really only affect what damage you would be taking before you activate it.

Xin Zhao has passive attack speed, plus reducing cooldowns, and even active attack speed.
I suppose this is the alternative to Garen's W active. This allows Xin Zhao to be less of a passive player. Garen, after all, relies heavily on Judgment. It allows Zhao to reach attack speed cap eventually, so it never really becomes useless.
Since Garen and Zhao BOTH are melee DPS types, this means Zhao wins, imo. Garen can't rely on auto-attacks or AS too heavily and almost relies exclusively on Judgment damage.

Both have massive AOE. Garen's is more spammable, but Garen's scales with AD/Crit, while Xin's scales on enemy HP. Zhao's can still be spammed thanks to the CDR boost from W and using skills, just not multiple times a fight.
I personally feel Zhao has the more deadly AOE. It's instant-cast, so people can't just run out of shiny animations to avoid it. Not that they could anyways, with the slow from Charge.

Both have "execute" type ults. Garen's is a true Execute. Zhao's is AOE.
I think Zhao's is more deadly for late-game team fights, while Garen has to wait for the perfect moment to get a free kill by stealing from his team, usually.

Both are meant to fill the EXACT same role: hard-to-kill melee DPS.
Looking at the above, Zhao does it better.

So. TLDR: Xin Zhao does everything Garen can better (in most cases).
Conclusion: Either Garen needs to be redesigned/buffed so he can keep up with all the new champs that came out after him. Or Xin Zhao needs to be rebalanced. Let's all have a glass of wine to toast Garen version 2. i.e. Xin Zhao.


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xDiamantx

Senior Member

07-14-2010

Personally I'd have to say Garen needs a buff because he's always needed a buff.


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Matuk

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Senior Member

07-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by xDiamantx View Post
Personally I'd have to say Garen needs a buff because he's always needed a buff.
While I do agree with that statement, Xin Zhao just makes it extremely obvious now. Zhao completely outshines Garen in everything Garen is supposed to do amazingly well.

I'm hoping pointing this out on the forums will catch Riot's attention more than all the "OMG BUFF GAREN" posts out there. This way they can now see why people clamor for Garen to be buffed.

I've been *trying* to main Garen, cause I like his over-all concept. Suffice to say, I'm going to switch that to Zhao until they fix Garen, since I can do everything even better.


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Duck King

Senior Member

07-15-2010

The Demacian characters all have similarities. Xin Zhao... beats Poppy. But I don't mind. Garen is low and Poppy is mid tier at best, anyway, except on TT.


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Derfel

Junior Member

07-15-2010

Garen always needed a buff. Xin Zhao only made this a lot more obvious.

His damage output with Judgement in cooldown is very lame.
If you build attack speed you are gimping his judgment. If you only build attack power you can only watch while judgmente is on cooldown.


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Duck King

Senior Member

07-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derfel View Post
Garen always needed a buff. Xin Zhao only made this a lot more obvious.

His damage output with Judgement in cooldown is very lame.
If you build attack speed you are gimping his judgment. If you only build attack power you can only watch while judgmente is on cooldown.
And if you build with Judgement in mind you can't do anything end-game anyway, GG.

((But I'll be honest, the ability to move without stopping for attack frames whilst dealing damage, however poor compared to his auto-attack, is incredibly overlooked and strong.))


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Masterhummel

Member

07-15-2010

Both Garen and Xin are too strong at the moment. The only difference is, you have some kind of turning point for Garen. It's arround minute ~35 (depends of the game of course) where Garen starts to fall behind some other champions.

Xin doesn't have this point. He's very strong in early, mid and late game. That's not a good thing. Actually he's a game breaker, often you need up to three other champs to take him down. I'm not sure why riot is doing this. For a financial reason or they really didn't expect that he's this strong. Well, let's see the next big patch. I'm sure he get adjustments.


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Duck King

Senior Member

07-15-2010

I'm not sure why I got down-voted. I don't even own Xin. I'm saying that I'm calm about it given that champions are bound not to be 100% equal...


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Eppa

Senior Member

07-15-2010

LVL 1 DPS Garen>Xin


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Zodiak84

Member

07-15-2010

I would never compare Garen with Xin since they are completely different. Garen can silence and because of judgement he is a very good pusher. Garen can be beaten by range attacks (fast repeaded) so he get's no life regen. The best of Garen is his ult. I would always recommend to go with Garen for tank and add your team a silence and a finisher.

- early game: Go with judgement and kill your enemys
- mid game: Build up your tank, play defensive, Judgement is no more that good but still spam it
- late game: Go in, silence wait for others dps and finish a champ with your ult, take in account that judgement make no big damage anymore

Xin is in my opinion more panth style. Finish you enemy as quickly as possible and slow down. I would build him with massive life leech and dps.

Poppy is one of the champs where i got best kill/death ratios. Never ever underestimate poppy. She is in many situation far better then xin or garen.


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