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@Riot Teemo NEED buffs, and here is why.

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Ragazinski

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Teemo is in a good spot. The reasoning being, he can do a lot of things. Map awareness, Great early game DoT, the sick ability to gank another lane while still pushing your own lane.

Also.. Teemo has the greatest ability ever. He has the most epic global taunt in all of LoL.
As soon as hes seen every mouse right clicks him. It's quite a useful hidden ability.


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Master Yeezus

Senior Member

12-21-2011

He really does need some base stat buffs, and a small reduction on the CD of Move Quick. Past that, Teemo is okay really. He just needs to have the ability to be a factor from level one in laning, because right now he simply doesn't. He's outclassed by every carry in lane, due to aa ranges, new early game carries, etc., and it makes it impossible to take Teemo in the traditional bottom lane these days. He's a great top lane counter right now however, but that doesn't kick in until a bit later, like level 5 or 6 when he's doing enough autoattack damage for the other player to give a ****. The fact that he only holds a 15 minute window of strength that can be completely negated by an early death or tower loss makes him hard to pick in any case.

I propose a three second CD reduction to Move Quick, 3 AD added on to his base, a very very small amount per level, and a 10 base movement speed increase. Before we go buffing Teemo out of control, let's just take it slow and see.


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Yfrappefort

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
EagleSun:
he doesnt fit into the meta, you're right

but he is quite strong, I assure you.

he offers hybrid damage much like kogmaw and kayle, and I've seen him carry hundreds of times. Don't get me wrong, I feel like his blind is a bit weak, but other than that I really like his kit. It gives his entire team exceptional map awareness in addition to giving them additional cc/damage for escaping/ganking/chasing.

Teemo is a weird case, he seems UP on paper, but I feel like his map awareness definitely makes up for it.

I don't feel like he needs buffs.


He is just not UP on paper. You can't really say that the active part "Move Quick" is good. Just compare it to any dash, move speed of any kind and you will see how bad it is. As for the map awareness he bring, it's good, but not exceptional. Mushrooms have a small sight radius, and Tenacity reduce not only the slow, but the damage of the shroom as well. Surelly you don't find this ok?

I know he can be strong, I play him often, but so can any other champions if you play them well. Teemo is just not enough rewarding. Are you playing Teemo a lot? Have you tried doing ranked games with him? Have you ever done a game where even if you farmed like a monster and killed a lot, you don't feel as strong as other champions should be with about the same numbers of kills and equal farm? Well, this can happen often with Teemo, I assure you.


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Yfrappefort

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Ragazinski:
Also.. Teemo has the greatest ability ever. He has the most epic global taunt in all of LoL. As soon as hes seen every mouse right clicks him. It's quite a useful hidden ability.


Global taunt is so OP. Once, two died to my team just to try and get me, and I was still at around 30 % of health. Sometime I wish people could fear him a bit and not just think "Hey, free kill!"


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Yfrappefort

Senior Member

12-22-2011

Bump.


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TheLamentingLoon

Senior Member

12-22-2011

Quote:
Panzerfaust:
Champion Feedback forum ----------->


Several solid and well reasoned threads concerning the issues with Teemo have been posted there but as Yfrappefort has noted the Reds never seem to reply there but do so in the General Discussion all the time.


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targetg135

Member

12-22-2011

Quote:
Yfrappefort:
Teemo is outdated.

Since the last nerfs he received in April with the Brand patch (see the timeline for more info), he was left in the dust. Now, all of his kit is lacking, and he suffers from terrible base stats. Teemo need some buffs. Riot, you just can’t ignore him any longer. He is the weakest of all ranged dps champions.

This post is my humble protest to the lack of ANY Riot post concerning Teemo since his nerfs (if you find some, do post them). He is my main, so I want to play him more. I want him to be more rewarding for good game play.

I will keep this post updated with patches and bumped until Riot recognizes that Teemo is weak and need to be buffed.

Here are the topics that will be in this thread:

1. An analysis of Teemo’s ability, with current problems and proposed solutions, and why his overall kit is weak.
2. An analysis of Teemo’s stats, and why they need to be buffed. Also proposing some changes (This part is mostly taken from my post in champions feedback, that Riot never replied too : http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1418032)
3. A list of all the indirect nerfs to Teemo, making him less and less viable.
4. An analysis of Teemo’s role, and why so many people hate him.

Now, before I begin, there are a few things I don’t want to see in this post:

a) People saying he is “fine” without giving any arguments as to why they think he is fine.
b) Useless comments that bring nothing to the discussion.
c) Comments that are not related to Teemo.

So please, if you agree, disagree on things I say in this post, at least post why so we can have a constructive discussion .


1. An analysis of Teemo’s ability:

Q- Blinding Dart - Obscures an enemy's vision with a powerful venom, dealing damage to the target unit and causing all attacks to miss for the duration.
Deals 80/125/170/215/260 (+0.8) magic damage and causes the target to miss all of their attacks for 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 seconds.
Cost 70/80/90/100/110 Mana
Range 680

The problem: This is Teemo’s only CC, and sadly, it’s the weakest of all CC. Blind only works with auto-attack, and there are very few champions, aside carry, which relies heavily on AA. As new champions get released, there is less and less champions Teemo can actually counter with his blind. It’s unreliable to stop enemy ability, because it works on some of them, while it does not on others. For exemple, blind will make Renekton’s stun and Nasus’s Q miss, while Vayne can still use tumble and proc silver bolt even when blinded.

The proposed solution: Only two champions use blind now: Teemo and Heimerdinger. Blind should just be removed from the game entirely, and Teemo could get another CC instead of blind shot, like a damaging slow or something that synergize with his poison.

W- Move Quick - Teemo scampers around, passively increasing his movement speed until he is struck by an enemy champion or turret. Teemo can sprint to gain bonus movement speed that isn't stopped by being struck for a short time.
Passive: Teemo's Movement Speed is increased by 10/14/18/22/26% unless he has been damaged by an enemy champion or turret in the last 5 seconds.

Active: Teemo sprints, gaining twice his normal bonus for 3 seconds. This bonus is not lost when struck.
Cost 40 Mana
Range 20

The problem: This is Teemo’s chasing and escape ability. The passive on it is nice for moving around out of combat. Unfortunatly, it’s almost useless when Teemo need it the most: in team fights. Since the bonus is lost upon being hit, Teemo is very slow when he needs to be the most mobile. The active on it is also weak, especially since the nerf. Only 3 secs boost for 22 secs CD is ridiculous. It offers no protection from incoming CC, so the boost is barely noticeable in team fights.

The proposed solution: Either revert the CD to where it was before the nerf, or give it an added effect, like removing all CC when used, or reducing incoming CC or making you immune to the first one that hit you. Another way to fix Teemo’s speed problem in team fights would be to increase his base speed, but decrease the passive speed boost of this ability.

A more detailed explanation about “Move Quick” is below at point 2.

E- Toxic Shot - Each of Teemo's attacks will poison the target, dealing damage on impact and each second after for 4 seconds.
Teemo's basic attacks poison their target, dealing 9/18/27/36/45 (+0.14) magical damage upon impact and 6/12/18/24/30 (+0.14) magical damage each second for 4 seconds.
Cost Passive
Range 680

The problem: This is Teemo’s main damaging source. It’s quite handy to have early game for last hiting and harassing the enemy. However, the more the game goes on, the less useful his poison becomes. In the end, the damage is just a minor annoyance, and is not doing as much damage as it should.

The solution: Increase the AP ratios and make his poison scale off with his level, or deal additional % of maximum health as magic damage (like an additional ,20/,40/,60/,80/1 % of target maximum health on impact and another ,20/,40/,60/,80/1 % damage over time). This way, Teemo’s poison will still deal good damage even in end game, without becoming too strong early, and will be more threatening. Another way would be to give this ability an active, in the form of increased poison damage, or give him some kind of steroid (in damage for exemple).

R- Noxious Trap - Teemo places an explosive poisonous trap using one of the mushrooms stored in his pack. If an enemy steps on the trap it will release a poisonous cloud, slowing enemies and damaging them over time.
Uses a stored mushroom to place a trap that detonates if an enemy steps on it, spreading poison to nearby enemies that slows movement speed by 30/40/50% and deals 200/400/600 (+0.8) magic damage over 4 seconds. Traps last 10 minutes.

Teemo forages for a mushroom every X seconds, but he is only big enough to carry 3 at once.
Cost 75/100/125 Mana
Range 230

The problem: This is Teemo’s signature move, and the main reason he is so hated. This is mostly used for map awareness. The problem is in the damage it deals. Currently, any champions who get MR or with self-healing, shield or sustain (Udyr, for exemple) can step on 3+ of his mushrooms in a row with very little punishment, since the dot does not stack and the impact damage is very low. The fact that melee can still destroy mushrooms with melee attack without them exploding in their face is also really frustrating.

The proposed solution: There could be many ways to fix this. One solution would be reverting the damage to before the nerf. Another would be boosting the AP ratios. You could also make mushrooms dots stack (like a maximum or 3) or increase the impact damage. This way, it would really punish champions who step on multiple of these in a row. The mushrooms need a boost in some way, because they are already easy to counter with purple wards or oracle. His ultimate needs to feel like an ultimate, not something that can be ignored. To fix the problem of melee destroying them, simply increase the radius of explosion or make them explode as soon as they get hit by melee.

Passive- Camouflage - If Teemo stands still and takes no actions for 3 seconds, he becomes stealthed indefinitely. After leaving stealth, Teemo gains the Element of Surprise, increasing his attack speed by 40% for 3 seconds.

The problem: This allow Teemo to hide and ambush champions, as well as escaping ganks. It’s propably the most balanced part of his kit, but it is still lacking something. It’s mostly good early, but you can’t really use it by endgame because it puts you at too much risk (*cough oracle cough*). Since you can’t move to keep the stealth, it may put you at more risks then you expected when a teamfight starts. The one who planned to ambush become the ambushed.

The proposed solution: Make Teemo take reduced damage for 3 secs, the same duration as the speed boost, when he break out of stealth. This way, Teemo can use it more often by end game and if he get spoted, at least he will have more chances of escaping.

So he got a bad CC, a weak chasing/escape mechanic, a poison that get ignored in late game and an ult that can be easily denied. His overall kit is lacking, and need to be looked at.

On a side note Riot, thank you for the mushroom “level up” and the mushroom reload timer. Too bad these are the only buffs you gave him since April.


2. An analysis of Teemo’s stats: Teemo’s base stats are overall very low. As they say, numbers speak, so let’s take a look. This is a list of what Riot could improve.

A. His auto-attack range is low. Most important thing to change.

Teemo’s current auto-attack range is 500. That is low. In fact, it’s THE lowest of any ranged in the game, if you exclude Urgot (who is NOT an auto-attack champ anyway). Sivir is now on par with him, but she got some aoe, better chasing, an aoe AS/MS steroid and a CC shield to compensate. Even TF got 525 now and he got aoe too and hard CC. Teemo only got single target ability and no hard CC. Considering that and how squishy Teemo is, HE NEED THAT RANGE BUFF (from 500 to 550, for exemple) so that he’s not instantly focused and killed in teamfights. It would also make his laning phase a bit easier against champions with high range or gap closer (and almost every new champion got one).

B. His base damage is very low

Teemo’s base damage is 44,5. That’s very low. In fact, he got the lowest base damage of all champions (excluding Orianna, with 44, but it’s because of her passive). Tristana used to be on par with him, but since a recent patch her base damage got boosted. Now some of you might say that he got poison and that’s why. Still, it’s not a reason to put his damage so low, especially with such a small range. Maybe a small bonus (2-3 points) would help him a bit.

C. His base speed is very low

Yeah, even with his “Swift Scout” title, Teemo sits with a poor 305 base movement speed. Yes, he does have move quick, which increase his speed UNTIL he is hit. Now, as Teemo, how would you NOT get hit in teamfights? It’s almost impossible. That’s why I propose to bring his speed up to 310-315. Just this small change would give Teemo a much better chance to survive team fights, which is very hard to atm, considering the amount of CC and gap closer in the game. It would also better reward good play and kiting (a good Teemo won’t just sit there and auto-attack).

D. His chasing/escape mechanic is poor

Before his last nerf with Brand’s patch in April, Teemo’s move quick was a 3 second boost on a 13 sec CD. Now it’s a 3 second boost on a 22 sec CD. For such a long CD, the boost either needs to be increased in duration, or the CD reduced. Teemo can perform well against champs that cannot get to him directly, such as Garen and Singed. However, he’s having a hard time against champs with instant gap closer. It gets even worst if they have CC with it. Exemple are Irelia, Renekton and Talon. These champions, and many others, pretty much eat Teemo for breakfast, because his 3 sec escape will generally not allow him to survive their assault. You could ask me, why just not stay and face them then? Because his damage is too low, and you will most likely die before they do (even with blind).

Just for facts, let’s see a list of champs with instant or very fast gap closer (in alphabetical order):

1. Ahri (Spirit Rush)
2. Akali (Shadow Dance)
3. Amumu (Bandage Toss)
4. Blitzcrank (Rocket Grab)
5. Ezreal (Arcane Shift)
6. Fizz (Urchin Strike and Playful/Trickster)
7. Gragas (Body Slam)
8. Graves (Quickdraw)
9. Irelia (Bladesurge)
10. Jarvan IV (Cataclysm, also his lance/standard combo)
11. Jax (Leap Strike)
12. Kassadin (Riftwalk)
13. Katarina (Shunpo)
14. Leblanc (Distortion)
15. Lee Sin (Sonic Wave/Resonating Strike, Safeguard)
16. Leona (Zenith Blade)
17. Malphite (Unstoppable Force)
18. Maokai (Twisted Advance)
19. Nidalee (Pounce)
20. Nocturne (Paranoia)
21. Pantheon (Aegis of Zeonia)
22. Poppy (Heroic charge)
23. Renekton (Slice and Dice)
24. Riven (Broken Wings and Valor)
25. Shen (Shadow Dash)
26. Shyvana (Dragon's Descent)
27. Talon (Cutthroat)
28. Tristana (Rocket Jump)
29. Tryndamere (Spinning Slash)
30. Vayne (Tumble)
31. Warwick (Infinite Duress)
32. Wukong (Nimbus Strike)
33. Xin Zhao (Audacious Charge)

So we have now a total of 33 champions (around 37% of them) that can close the gap very quickly between Teemo and them, and this number will keep increasing with all the new champions coming out. Since his last nerf in April, 9 of those champs came out (Vayne, Leona, Wukong, Talon, Riven, Graves, Shyvana, Fizz and Ahri). Teemo rely on kiting to win, but with the increasing numbers of gap closer, it’s something he’s having more and more difficulty to do. So either a remake (like an instant gap closer) on his W is in order, or just adjusts the numbers to make it better with what he currently has to face.

E. His AP ratios are low

I find that a bit sad, because currently the only viable build path for Teemo is tanky/on-hit. His blind got a 0.8 ratio, his poison got a weak 0.14 (on hit and dots) and his ult got 0.8. Why is that a problem? Because it makes AP Teemo not viable at all. Since the last nerf to his mushrooms (in april again), AP, and even hybrid Teemo got sad. Some of you might say that boosting his AP ratios would make him OP. I do not agree. Why? Because, like I said above, currently someone can walk on 2-3 mushrooms in a row with very little punishment. Even when going AP, when you like rely 90% on these, they won’t do enough to be worth all the trouble you went to place them. AP Teemo is a very different play style then other Teemo build, you have to kite even more, prepare the field perfectly before big fights, and I wish it could be more rewarding. So what I suggest is that we boost his blind to 1.0 ratio, his poison (on hit and dots) to 0.25 and his mushrooms to 1.0. That way, without touching the base damage, AD and on-hit Teemo won’t become OP, and AP Teemo can be more viable.


3. A list of indirect nerfs to Teemo, wich made him less and less viable. For detailed informations about these nerfs, please refer to the timeline at http://timeline.leagueoflegends.com/:

a) The nerf to Wit’s end: Vayne patch
b) The nerf to “Move Quick” and the removal of mushroom collision with ability: Yorick patch
c) The nerf to the Gunblade: Graves patch
d) The nerf to the Lantern and the Flash nerf: Fizz patch
e) The nerf to the “Alacrity” talent in the offense tree: Ahri patch

While these nerfs only affected Teemo indirectly, he still has to deal with them. If Teemo was balanced, it would not be that much of a bother. However, in his current situation, any kind of nerfs, may they be direct or indirect, are making Teemo harder and harder to play.


4. An analysis of Teemo’s role, and why so many people hate him.

What is Teemo role? That is the question some people will ask when playing Teemo. The truth is, he is very hard to place in a team, because he got no precise role, and cannot do any real role.

- He is not an AD carry: None of Teemo’s ability scale off AD, and he got no steroid of any kind to help him do this job. His short range also prevents him from doing this role in an effective way. Any ranged AD carry can do the job better.

- He is not an AP carry: Even though Teemo’s ability scale off AP, he cannot build purely AP. Why? Because he depends way too much on mushrooms to do anything, and he is gimping his team as soon as the enemy team get oracle. His presence in team fights will be very weak, and he will die very quickly. Any AP carry can do the job better.

- He can’t jungle: Ok, maybe he “can” jungle now with the new mastery and surge spell, but honestly, there is NO reason at all to pick him over any other VIABLE junglers. Any junglers can do the job better.

- He can’t support: By supports, I mean the current Meta, which is 0 CS. Supports can generally do good with very few items, like Janna, Sona, etc. because they have CC and/or heals to assists their team. Sadly, this is not the case with Teemo. Not only does he lack a heal and decent CC but he also needs items to be decent, and by items I mean lots. Having almost no damage/health items and just standard support items (gp10 for exemple), you will just put a giant sign on your head saying “gank me, I’m even easier to kill” and will further increase the global taunt. The only reason he is tagged “support” is because of his mushrooms, but these are not enough for him to do this role. Any supports can do the job better.

So what role is there left for Teemo? Not much aside a counter pick to very specific champions (like Garen, Singed, Tryndamere, Nasus). You can almost only play him as a solo top, to replace a melee bruiser. His low range prevents him from going bot lane with a support, and he can’t possibly face an AP carry in mid without getting owned (again, mostly because of his abyssal range). What does he bring to the team? A blind to annoy the ranged carry. Some additional map awareness. Decent split push. That’s about it. He really needs a boost to be more competitive.

So why so many people hate Teemo? Mostly for the points above, but because:

a) He can’t do any role. He is a jack of all trade, master of none. People like it when their teammates pick specific roles (especially in ranked), because they can pick champions accordingly with what the team need. I always get asked when I play Teemo “AD or AP Teemo?” because you can never know what Teemo is going to be. Funny thing is that he is not viable as either AD or AP. His only viable build is tanky/on-hit. Teemo suffer from a personality problem and is very limited in builds to be good, so people don’t like it.

b) They hate his mushrooms. Not much to explain here. People just hate to stomp on his mushrooms after a well executed gank only to die a few seconds after. Funny thing is that they are so easy to counter. Teemo mostly deal magic damage, and his mushrooms are no exceptions. Build some MR or get an oracle and voila! You have countered Teemo.

c) But most importantly, they hate the fact that you need to be extremely good with Teemo just to make him look decent. Sadly, there are few good Teemo players and that’s why people hate when players choose him. I can’t count the number of times when I picked Teemo and people told me things like we were going to lose or that I was going to feed, even if I ended up doing very well and we won. Granted, Teemo CAN’T carry his team, he will do well ONLY if you are very good with him, but also if the other lanes don’t feed. Many times have I owned the top lane and farmed very well, only to find out I was useless once we reached team fights because the game was not in our favour.


TL;DR

Teemo is outdated, untouched for 8 months since his last nerf in April, and is in need of some buffs. Riot must stop ignoring him.

Teemo is supposed to be a fearsome killer (if you look at his lore) but currently, he is not very threatening (global taunt anyone?). There is a reason why Riot gave away the numbers of time Teemo died: because he is so easy to kill! There is a reason why we almost never see him in competitive play: because a lot of champions do the job better than him, with equal skill and gear. I’m calling to all Teemo players out there, especially those who main him like me. Let our voice be heard! Help this post reach Riot ears so that Teemo get the attention he deserves, so that soon (and I do NOT mean Riot’s “soon”), he can finally become the Yordle he is meant to be.


100% ranked win rate with teemo. I'm afraid that if they buff him, he'll go FoTM


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RMP0005

Senior Member

12-22-2011

I would love a buff to teemo, he was one of the first characters I played with. With that said though, maxing Q first is awesome early game and I can lead my team in kills on a pretty regular basis (in normal at least). So idk how drastic the buff really needs to be


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Face33

Member

12-22-2011

I do feel like blind as a whole could use some work. Blinding an Udyr only for him to bear stun you despite the attack missing is pretty dumb. I also think that using Move Quick should give Teemo the passive once the 3 second duration wears off.

Other than that, I really don't feel like he needs much. I think you're underestimating how powerful blind is; you drop most carries DPS to 0 for 2.5 seconds which is pretty crazy. The shrooms have a strong slow on them, and if you don't have a self shield they hurt.

It is true he doesn't have a well defined role on a team, other than dominating top against most. But I don't think that means he is unbalanced, just the meta doesn't favor him.


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iMaxis

Recruiter

12-22-2011

Why should it be impossible for melee champions to destroy it? They bought oracles they should have a way to destroy it. The blind portion allows Teemo to be a counter pick to some AD carries. The movequick might need a cooldown reduction buff. He has low base damage because of his toxic shot.