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@Riot Teemo NEED buffs, and here is why.

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Serenity Now

Senior Member

02-01-2012

And Ashe gets a buff because apparently "she gets bullied out of lane too easily".

This live team is such a joke.


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Frostaine

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
KingDinger:
Yfrappefort

im just gunna say it. YOUR ****ING RETARDED.

everything you said in the OP is ****ing stupid and wrong.

teemo squishy no damage? hi im heimer im squishier, no escape what so ever and do mediocre poke damage early and no damage late, half my kit (Q and R) do absolutely nothing to anyone with even a tiny hotshotQQ sized brain, oh except the passive CDR on R....

AP teemo relies on shrooms too much? hi im shaco, im so **** as AP now i cant even be PLAYED as AP. box stacking doesnt work anymore, R is unreliable and always was and on top of that all he has left is E that doesnt blind anymore, is on a longer CD than teemos similar nuke. the only thing better than teemo is his escape....but teemo has invis too anyway.

teemo doesnt hard counter anyone? oh right tryn never existed....teemo counters ANY melee AD auto attacker....teemo just doesnt counter AD casters like garen.

teemo only has soft CC? oh cos blind isnt THE best CC apart from stun. it stops the AD carry from pumping out 700+ damage per shot late game...its 2.5 seconds so at late game a 2.0 AS cait with headshot proc she can do upwards of 3000 damage EASILY in that time. so with the blind he stops her getting any headshot build up or proc, stops a **** ton of damage AND it does a decent nuke.
and now with shaco and corki losing blind its on an even smaller pool of champs...only heimer and teemo. and heimers is a skill shot and doesnt last as long.

teemo is a poor AD ranged carry? holy **** how retarded are you? teemo is a counter pick. his only comparison as a ranged carry is twitch...and try telling anyone that teemo is worse than twitch...

teemo is a GREAT champion and doesnt need any buffs or nerfs. hell a few months ago (way AFTER this thread started....) teemo was QQed about, saying he was too stronk. with no changes at all....WTF. and this thread is STILL going?


You are SOO right.......... Seriously


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BrendanEarth

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
KingDinger:
Yfrappefort

im just gunna say it. YOUR ****ING RETARDED.

everything you said in the OP is ****ing stupid and wrong.

teemo squishy no damage? hi im heimer im squishier, no escape what so ever and do mediocre poke damage early and no damage late, half my kit (Q and R) do absolutely nothing to anyone with even a tiny hotshotQQ sized brain, oh except the passive CDR on R....

AP teemo relies on shrooms too much? hi im shaco, im so **** as AP now i cant even be PLAYED as AP. box stacking doesnt work anymore, R is unreliable and always was and on top of that all he has left is E that doesnt blind anymore, is on a longer CD than teemos similar nuke. the only thing better than teemo is his escape....but teemo has invis too anyway.

teemo doesnt hard counter anyone? oh right tryn never existed....teemo counters ANY melee AD auto attacker....teemo just doesnt counter AD casters like garen.

teemo only has soft CC? oh cos blind isnt THE best CC apart from stun. it stops the AD carry from pumping out 700+ damage per shot late game...its 2.5 seconds so at late game a 2.0 AS cait with headshot proc she can do upwards of 3000 damage EASILY in that time. so with the blind he stops her getting any headshot build up or proc, stops a **** ton of damage AND it does a decent nuke.
and now with shaco and corki losing blind its on an even smaller pool of champs...only heimer and teemo. and heimers is a skill shot and doesnt last as long.

teemo is a poor AD ranged carry? holy **** how retarded are you? teemo is a counter pick. his only comparison as a ranged carry is twitch...and try telling anyone that teemo is worse than twitch...

teemo is a GREAT champion and doesnt need any buffs or nerfs. hell a few months ago (way AFTER this thread started....) teemo was QQed about, saying he was too stronk. with no changes at all....WTF. and this thread is STILL going?


Shaco can't play ap? That's like whining that AP Ashe is terrible. Maybe you aren't suppose to go AP...


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Crocodilly

Member

02-01-2012

it's time to buff teemo. do it riot.


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Yfrappefort

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
Orion69:
TBH, I would respond to all ur comments, but you have some good points and some bad. I do agree that teemo mushrooms should stack (to about 3 stacks), but they should remain at their damage. Its OP early game, and it's reveal/slow is too strong. Of all ur gap closers, you see how many of them were ranged AD? 3. Trist/Corki/Ezreal. Ezreal is possibly in worse shape than teemo. And while Corki and Trist are strong, their gap closer is often used as an escape mechanism.

Ranged AD aren't supposed to have gap closers like Lee Sin, because they aren't melee.

Also, I wanted to note that Teemo is still played competitively, but as a counter pick to melee champs (especially stomps Trynd).


You do realize that Trynd stomp on Teemo, right? Blinding is not enough, and Trynd's kit is "anti-Teemo". Also, Ezreal is way better then Teemo, and when you get fed on him, at least it pays off. He's just not much played in NA, while in China he's dominating most games. And I would have to disagree that Trist escape is mainly used for fleeing. Most of the Trist players will lane with an aggressive support, like Alistar or Sona, and put a few points in the jump for increased damage and slow. So if anything, people are gonna use it more for offense, at least early, and Corki is about the same, he can switch from passive farming to offense very quickly. Finally, his mushrooms are not OP, not even at level 1 (200 damage OP? Minus the 30 MR everyone gets at start), it's still poor damage and is only good for the slow and to see others coming.


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Yfrappefort

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
KingDinger:
Yfrappefort

im just gunna say it. YOUR ****ING RETARDED.

everything you said in the OP is ****ing stupid and wrong.

teemo squishy no damage? hi im heimer im squishier, no escape what so ever and do mediocre poke damage early and no damage late, half my kit (Q and R) do absolutely nothing to anyone with even a tiny hotshotQQ sized brain, oh except the passive CDR on R....

AP teemo relies on shrooms too much? hi im shaco, im so **** as AP now i cant even be PLAYED as AP. box stacking doesnt work anymore, R is unreliable and always was and on top of that all he has left is E that doesnt blind anymore, is on a longer CD than teemos similar nuke. the only thing better than teemo is his escape....but teemo has invis too anyway.

teemo doesnt hard counter anyone? oh right tryn never existed....teemo counters ANY melee AD auto attacker....teemo just doesnt counter AD casters like garen.

teemo only has soft CC? oh cos blind isnt THE best CC apart from stun. it stops the AD carry from pumping out 700+ damage per shot late game...its 2.5 seconds so at late game a 2.0 AS cait with headshot proc she can do upwards of 3000 damage EASILY in that time. so with the blind he stops her getting any headshot build up or proc, stops a **** ton of damage AND it does a decent nuke.
and now with shaco and corki losing blind its on an even smaller pool of champs...only heimer and teemo. and heimers is a skill shot and doesnt last as long.

teemo is a poor AD ranged carry? holy **** how retarded are you? teemo is a counter pick. his only comparison as a ranged carry is twitch...and try telling anyone that teemo is worse than twitch...

teemo is a GREAT champion and doesnt need any buffs or nerfs. hell a few months ago (way AFTER this thread started....) teemo was QQed about, saying he was too stronk. with no changes at all....WTF. and this thread is STILL going?


KingDinger

Thank you for taking the time to write a constructive and polite post that really bring a new point of vue to the discussion! It's great to see that you are an amazing Teemo hat--, player I mean and that you understand how the game and Teemo works way better then me. Obviously you should start streaming ranked and only play Teemo, so you can show everyone how GREAT he is. I'll see you there.


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KliK

Recruiter

02-01-2012

Quote:
Yfrappefort:
Teemo is outdated.

Since the last nerfs he received in April 2011 with the Brand patch (see below), he was left in the dust.

Release Notes v1.0.0.115 – 4/11/2011
Mon, 2011-04-11

Teemo

- Noxious Trap: Mushroom reload time increased to 35/31/27 from 30/26/22
Damage reduced to 200/400/600 from 250/475/700
Fixed a bug that calculated the AP coefficient lower than intended
- Move Quick: Cooldown increased to 22 seconds from 13

Now, all of his kit is lacking, and he suffers from terrible base stats. Teemo need some buffs. Riot, you just can’t ignore him any longer. He is the weakest of all ranged dps champions.

This post is my humble protest to the lack of ANY Riot post concerning Teemo since his nerfs (if you find some, do post them). He is my main, so I want to play him more. I want him to be more rewarding for good game play.

I will keep this post updated and bumped with patches.

Here are the topics that will be in this thread:

1. An analysis of Teemo’s ability, with current problems and proposed solutions, and why his overall kit is weak.
2. An analysis of Teemo’s stats, and why they need to be buffed. Also proposing some changes (This part is mostly taken from my post in champions feedback, that Riot never replied too : http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1418032)
3. A list of all the indirect nerfs to Teemo, making him less and less viable.
4. An analysis of Teemo’s role, and why so many people hate him.

Now, before I begin, there are a few things I don’t want to see in this post:

a) People saying things like "he is fine” or "he don't need buffs" without giving any arguments to explain their point.
b) Useless comments that bring nothing to the discussion.
c) Comments that are not related to Teemo.

So please, if you agree, disagree on things I say in this post, at least post why so we can have a constructive discussion .

*IMPORTANT* This is a list of what Riot COULD be changing to improve Teemo. Granted, buffing some things would nullify the need to boost others. I'm not asking for a boost in all of these (it would be silly), but rather at some of these. Just proposing ideas as to how each of these could be improved. I don't want him to be OP. I want him to be balanced. Huge difference. *IMPORTANT*


1. An analysis of Teemo’s ability:

Q- Blinding Dart - Obscures an enemy's vision with a powerful venom, dealing damage to the target unit and causing all attacks to miss for the duration.
Deals 80/125/170/215/260 (+0.8) magic damage and causes the target to miss all of their attacks for 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 seconds.
Cost 70/80/90/100/110 Mana
Range 680

The problem: This is one of the two soft CC Teemo got, and sadly, it’s the weakest of all CC. Blind only works with auto-attack, and there are very few champions, aside carry, which relies heavily on AA. As new champions get released, there is less and less champions Teemo can actually counter with his blind. It’s unreliable to stop enemy ability, because it works on some of them, while it does not on others. For exemple, blind will make Renekton’s stun and Nasus’s Q miss, while Vayne can still use tumble and proc silver bolt even when blinded.

The proposed solution: Only two champions use blind now: Teemo and Heimerdinger. Blind should just be removed from the game entirely, and Teemo could get another CC instead of blind shot, like a damaging slow or something that synergize with his poison. Or it could be replaced by a vision cut, like Graves and Nocturne. It would be far superior and actually useful against anyone, not just AA champs, making it a more consistent ability. Of course, the duration would have to be reduced to compensate (to like 1.5 sec at all ranks). Last thing they could do is at least make it so that blind makes AD ability miss as well, not just AA (it would delay the effect of on-hit ability, without removing it for the duration of the blind and put effective AD to "0&quot.

W- Move Quick - Teemo scampers around, passively increasing his movement speed until he is struck by an enemy champion or turret. Teemo can sprint to gain bonus movement speed that isn't stopped by being struck for a short time.
Passive: Teemo's Movement Speed is increased by 10/14/18/22/26% unless he has been damaged by an enemy champion or turret in the last 5 seconds.

Active: Teemo sprints, gaining twice his normal bonus for 3 seconds. This bonus is not lost when struck.
Cost 40 Mana
Range 20

The problem: This is Teemo’s chasing and escape ability. The passive on it is nice for moving around out of combat. Unfortunatly, it’s almost useless when Teemo need it the most: in team fights. Since the bonus is lost upon being hit, Teemo is very slow when he needs to be the most mobile. The active on it is also weak, especially since the nerf. Only 3 secs boost for 22 secs CD is ridiculous. It offers no protection from incoming CC, so the boost is barely noticeable in team fights.

The proposed solution: Either revert the CD to where it was before the nerf, or give it an added effect, like removing all CC when used, or reducing incoming CC or making you immune to the first one that hit you. Another way to fix Teemo’s speed problem in team fights would be to increase his base speed, but decrease the passive speed boost of this ability. This change would reduce a bit his roaming speed and his active speed (since the active speed double the passive buff), but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make in order for him to be faster in combat.

A more detailed explanation about “Move Quick” is below at point 2.

E- Toxic Shot - Each of Teemo's attacks will poison the target, dealing damage on impact and each second after for 4 seconds.
Teemo's basic attacks poison their target, dealing 9/18/27/36/45 (+0.14) magical damage upon impact and 6/12/18/24/30 (+0.14) magical damage each second for 4 seconds.
Cost Passive
Range 680

The problem: This is Teemo’s main damaging source. It’s quite handy to have early game for last hiting and harassing the enemy. However, the more the game goes on, the less useful his poison becomes. In the end, the damage is just a minor annoyance, and is not doing as much damage as it should.

The proposed solution: Increase the AP ratios and make his poison scale off with his level, or deal additional % of maximum health as magic damage (like an additional ,20/,40/,60/,80/1 % of target maximum health on impact and another ,20/,40/,60/,80/1 % damage over time). This way, Teemo’s poison will still deal good damage even in end game, without becoming too strong early, and will be more threatening. Another way would be to give this ability an active, in the form of increased poison damage, or give him some kind of steroid (in damage for exemple).

R- Noxious Trap - Teemo places an explosive poisonous trap using one of the mushrooms stored in his pack. If an enemy steps on the trap it will release a poisonous cloud, slowing enemies and damaging them over time.
Uses a stored mushroom to place a trap that detonates if an enemy steps on it, spreading poison to nearby enemies that slows movement speed by 30/40/50% and deals 200/400/600 (+0.8) magic damage over 4 seconds. Traps last 10 minutes.

Teemo forages for a mushroom every X seconds, but he is only big enough to carry 3 at once.
Cost 75/100/125 Mana
Range 230

The problem: This is Teemo’s signature move, and the main reason he is so hated. The slow is nice, and combined with wards, it provide additionnal map awareness. The problem is in the damage it deals. Currently, any champions who get MR or with self-healing, shield or sustain (Udyr, for exemple) can step on 3+ of his mushrooms in a row with very little punishment, since the dot does not stack and the impact damage is very low. The fact that melee can still destroy mushrooms with melee attack without them exploding in their face is also really frustrating.

The proposed solution: There could be many ways to fix this. One solution would be reverting the damage to before the nerf. Another would be boosting the AP ratios. You could also make mushrooms dots stack (like a maximum or 3) or increase the impact damage. This way, it would really punish champions who step on multiple of these in a row. The mushrooms need a boost in some way, because they are already easy to counter with purple wards or oracle. His ultimate needs to feel like an ultimate, not something that can be ignored. To fix the problem of melee destroying them, simply increase the radius of explosion or make them explode as soon as they get hit by melee.

Passive- Camouflage - If Teemo stands still and takes no actions for 3 seconds, he becomes stealthed indefinitely. After leaving stealth, Teemo gains the Element of Surprise, increasing his attack speed by 40% for 3 seconds.

The problem: This allow Teemo to hide and ambush champions, as well as escaping ganks. It’s propably the most balanced part of his kit, but it is still lacking something. It’s mostly good early, but you can’t really use it by endgame because it puts you at too much risk (*cough oracle cough*). Since you can’t move to keep the stealth, it may put you at more risks then you expected when a teamfight starts. The one who planned to ambush become the ambushed.

The proposed solution: Make Teemo take reduced damage for 3 secs, the same duration as the AS boost, when he break out of stealth. This way, Teemo can use it more often by end game and if he get spoted, at least he will have more chances of escaping. Or they could also make the stealth persist for 1 sec after moving.



This is also a good idea. Making Teemo use brush more effectively, like Nidalee, would bring interesting gameplay. Also, it does makes perfect sense for the activation of camouflage to be reduced while in a brush.

So he got a bad CC, a weak chasing/escape mechanic, a poison that get ignored in late game and an ult that can be easily denied. His overall kit is lacking, and need to be looked at.

On a side note Riot, thank you for the mushroom “level up” and the mushroom reload timer. Too bad these are the only buffs you gave him since April.


2. An analysis of Teemo’s stats: Teemo’s base stats are overall very low. As they say, numbers speak, so let’s take a look. This is a list of what Riot could improve.

A. His auto-attack range is low. Most important thing to change.

Teemo’s current auto-attack range is 500. That is low. In fact, it’s THE lowest of any ranged in the game, if you exclude Urgot (who is NOT an auto-attack champ anyway). Sivir is now on par with him, but she got some aoe, better chasing, an aoe AS/MS steroid and a CC shield to compensate. Even TF got 525 now and he got aoe too and hard CC. Teemo only got single target ability and no hard CC. Considering that and how squishy Teemo is, HE NEED THAT RANGE BUFF (from 500 to 550, for exemple) so that he’s not instantly focused and killed in teamfights. It would also make his laning phase a bit easier against champions with high range or gap closer (and almost every new champion got one).

B. His base damage is very low

Teemo’s base damage is 44,5. That’s very low. In fact, he got the lowest base damage of all champions (excluding Orianna, with 44, but it’s because of her passive). Tristana used to be on par with him, but since a recent patch her base damage got boosted. Now some of you might say that he got poison and that’s why. Still, it’s not a reason to put his damage so low, especially with such a small range. Maybe a small bonus (2-3 points) would help him a bit.

C. His base speed is very low

Yeah, even with his “Swift Scout” title, Teemo sits with a poor 305 base movement speed. Yes, he does have move quick, which increase his speed UNTIL he is hit. Now, as Teemo, how would you NOT get hit in teamfights? It’s almost impossible. That’s why I propose to bring his speed up to 315-320 (while lowering a bit the % bonus MS passive from move quick.). Just this small change would give Teemo a much better chance to survive team fights, which is very hard to atm, considering the amount of CC and gap closer in the game. It would also better reward good play and kiting (a good Teemo won’t just sit there and auto-attack).

D. His chasing/escape mechanic is poor

Before his last nerf with Brand’s patch in April, Teemo’s move quick was a 3 second boost on a 13 sec CD. Now it’s a 3 second boost on a 22 sec CD. For such a long CD, the boost either needs to be increased in duration, or the CD reduced. Teemo can perform well against champs that cannot get to him directly, such as Garen and Singed. However, he’s having a hard time against champs with instant gap closer. It gets even worst if they have CC with it. Exemple are Irelia, Renekton and Talon. These champions, and many others, pretty much eat Teemo for breakfast, because his 3 sec escape will generally not allow him to survive their assault. You could ask me, why just not stay and face them then? Because his damage is too low, and you will most likely die before they do (even with blind).

Just for facts, let’s see a list of champs with instant or very fast gap closer (in alphabetical order):

1. Akali (Shadow Dance)
2. Amumu (Bandage Toss)
3. Blitzcrank (Rocket Grab)
4. Corki (Valkyrie)
5. Ezreal (Arcane Shift)
6. Fizz (Urchin Strike and Playful/Trickster)
7. Gragas (Body Slam)
8. Graves (Quickdraw)
9. Irelia (Bladesurge)
10. Jarvan IV (Cataclysm, also his lance/standard combo)
11. Jax (Leap Strike)
12. Kassadin (Riftwalk)
13. Katarina (Shunpo)
14. Kennen (Lightning Rush)
15. Leblanc (Distortion)
16. Lee Sin (Sonic Wave/Resonating Strike, Safeguard)
17. Leona (Zenith Blade)
18. Maokai (Twisted Advance)
19. Nidalee (Pounce)
20. Pantheon (Aegis of Zeonia)
21. Poppy (Heroic charge)
22. Renekton (Slice and Dice)
23. Riven (Broken Wings and Valor)
24. Shaco (Deceive)
25. Shen (Shadow Dash)
26. Talon (Cutthroat)
27. Tristana (Rocket Jump)
28. Tryndamere (Spinning Slash)
29. Vayne (Tumble)
30. Wukong (Nimbus Strike)
31. Xin Zhao (Audacious Charge)

*See the end of page 90 for a detailed CD analysis of this list*

So we now have a total of 31 champions (around 34% of them) that can close the gap very quickly between Teemo and them (and that is excluding ultimate, aside Kassadin and Akali, since they can use it very often), and this number will keep increasing with all the new champions coming out. Since his last nerf in April, 7 of those champs came out (Vayne, Leona, Wukong, Talon, Riven, Graves and Fizz). Teemo rely on kiting to win, but with the increasing numbers of gap closer, it’s something he’s having more and more difficulty to do. So either a remake (like an instant gap closer) on his W is in order, or just adjusts the numbers to make it better with what he currently has to face.

E. His AP ratios are low

I find that a bit sad, because currently the only viable build path for Teemo is tanky/on-hit. His blind got a 0.8 ratio, his poison got a weak 0.14 (on hit and dots) and his ult got 0.8. Why is that a problem? Because it makes AP Teemo not viable at all. Since the last nerf to his mushrooms (in april again), AP, and even hybrid Teemo got sad. Some of you might say that boosting his AP ratios would make him OP. I do not agree. Why? Because, like I said above, currently someone can walk on 2-3 mushrooms in a row with very little punishment. Even when going AP, when you like rely 90% on these, they won’t do enough to be worth all the trouble you went to place them. AP Teemo is a very different play style then other Teemo build, you have to kite even more, prepare the field perfectly before big fights, and I wish it could be more rewarding. So what I suggest is that we boost his blind to 1.0 ratio, his poison (on hit and dots) to 0.25 and his mushrooms to 1.0. That way, without touching the base damage, AD and on-hit Teemo won’t become OP, and AP Teemo can be more viable.

"Teemo, the squishy scout"

On top of that, with his low base stats, Teemo is extremely squishy. Why is that a problem? Because he does not have the damage to make up for it. Think about it. Name me a few champions that are very fragile AND do almost no damage. Veigar and Annie? Huge nuke potential and hard CC to make up for it. Vayne? Lots of reposition skills, damage steroid + combat stealth, good chasing and better AA range to make up for it. Teemo? Very squishy, no damage, no hard CC, bad escape, bad chasing. IMO not balanced.


3. A list of indirect nerfs to Teemo, wich made him less and less viable. For detailed informations about these nerfs, please refer to the timeline at http://timeline.leagueoflegends.com/:

a) The nerf to Wit’s end: Vayne patch
b) The nerf to “Move Quick” and the removal of mushroom collision with ability: Yorick patch
c) The nerf to the Gunblade: Graves patch
d) The nerf to the Lantern and the Flash nerf: Fizz patch
e) The nerf to the “Alacrity” talent in the offense tree: Ahri patch

While these nerfs only affected Teemo indirectly, he still has to deal with them. If Teemo was balanced, it would not be that much of a bother. However, in his current situation, any kind of nerfs, may they be direct or indirect, are making Teemo harder and harder to play.


4. An analysis of Teemo’s role, and why so many people hate him.

What is Teemo role? That is the question some people will ask when playing Teemo. The truth is, he is very hard to place in a team, because he got no precise role, and cannot do any real role.

- He is not an AD carry: None of Teemo’s ability scale off AD, and he got no steroid of any kind to help him do this job. His short range also prevents him from doing this role in an effective way. Any ranged AD carry can do the job better.

- He is not an AP carry: Even though Teemo’s ability scale off AP, he cannot build purely AP. Why? Because he depends way too much on mushrooms to do anything, and he is gimping his team as soon as the enemy team get oracle. His presence in team fights will be very weak, and he will die very quickly. Any AP carry can do the job better.

- He can’t jungle: Ok, maybe he “can” jungle now with the new mastery and surge spell, but honestly, there is NO reason at all to pick him over any other VIABLE junglers. Any junglers can do the job better.

- He can’t support: By supports, I mean the current Meta, which is 0 CS. Supports can generally do good with very few items, like Janna, Sona, etc. because they have CC and/or heals to assists their team. Sadly, this is not the case with Teemo. Not only does he lack a heal and decent CC but he also needs items to be decent, and by items I mean lots. Having almost no damage/health items and just standard support items (gp10 for exemple), you will just put a giant sign on your head saying “gank me, I’m even easier to kill” and will further increase the global taunt. The only reason he is tagged “support” is because of his mushrooms, but these are not enough for him to do this role. Any supports can do the job better.

So what role is there left for Teemo? Not much aside a "counter pick" to very specific champions (like Garen, Singed, Tryndamere, Nasus). You can almost only play him as a solo top, to replace a melee bruiser. His low range prevents him from going bot lane with a support, and he can’t possibly face an AP carry in mid without getting owned (again, mostly because of his abyssal range). What does he bring to the team? A blind to annoy the ranged carry. Some additional map awareness. Decent split push. That’s about it. He really needs a boost to be more competitive.

"But Teemo is a great counter pick!", some might say, that's not even true. He can't even do his "counter pick" role well nor does he "hard counter" anyone: Teemo is a ranged. Most solo tops are melee. Usually ranged > melee for harassing. Try putting any other range on solo top VS the current melee meta and see how you dominate 10x more then with Teemo. Regardless, he is still stuck to be on solo top. It's the only way for him to farm (and his farming is bad unless you blow all your shrooms on minions) "safely" without getting dominated and the only way for him to level up quickly. He was never created to be a "counter pick" in the first place, it's his awful state that force him to go there. Teemo's advantage over the early level will fade away as soon as his opponent reach 6 and buy 1 item. Oh, and that is just considering 1v1 scenario, not even counting the fact he is super easy to gank with most jungler/solo top combo.

So why so many people hate Teemo? Mostly for the points above, but also because:

a) He can’t do any role. He is a jack of all trade, master of none. People like it when their teammates pick specific roles (especially in ranked), because they can pick champions accordingly with what the team need. I always get asked when I play Teemo “AD or AP Teemo?” because you can never know what Teemo is going to be. Funny thing is that he is not viable as either AD or AP. His only viable build is tanky/on-hit. Teemo suffer from a personality problem and is very limited in builds to be good, so people don’t like it.

b) They hate his mushrooms and DOTS in general. Not much to explain here. People just hate to stomp on his mushrooms after a well executed gank only to die a few seconds after. Funny thing is that they are so easy to counter. Teemo mostly deal magic damage, and his mushrooms are no exceptions. Build some MR or get an oracle and voila! You have countered Teemo. I don't know any other ultimate that can be countered with only 400g.

c) But most importantly, they hate the fact that you need to be extremely good with Teemo just to make him look decent. Sadly, there are few good Teemo players and that’s why people hate when players choose him. I can’t count the number of times when I picked Teemo and people told me things like we were going to lose or that I was going to feed, even if I ended up doing very well and we won. Granted, Teemo CAN’T carry his team, he will do well ONLY if you are very good with him, but also if the other lanes don’t feed. Many times have I owned the top lane and farmed very well, only to find out I was useless once we reached team fights because the game was not in our favour.


TL;DR

Teemo is outdated, untouched for 9 months since his last nerf in April 2011, and is in need of some buffs. Riot must really look at him.



Even The Rain Man, one of the top Teemo player, think so as well.

Teemo is supposed to be a fearsome killer (if you look at his lore) but currently, he is not very threatening (global taunt anyone?). There is a reason why Riot gave away the numbers of time Teemo died: because he is so easy to kill! There is a reason why we almost never see him in competitive play: because a lot of champions do the job better than him, with equal skill and gear. I’m calling out to all Teemo players out there, especially those who main him like me. Let our voice be heard! Help this post reach Riot ears so that Teemo get the attention he deserves, so that soon (and I do NOT mean Riot’s “soon”), he can finally become the Yordle he is meant to be.

EDIT 1 : OVER 100 upvotes in 2 days! That's a good start!

EDIT 2 : 200 upvotes! Going up fast!

EDIT 3 : 300+ upvotes! Merry Christmas everyone!

EDIT 4 : 500 upvotes in 5 days!!!

EDIT 5 : Reached 700 upvotes before 2012! Happy new year!

EDIT 6 : 800 upvotes!!!

EDIT 7 : The post was moved from general chat to champion feedback, yet still no reply? I don't really know what to think of this...

EDIT 8 : Still got to 900 upvotes! Now 80+ pages and over 25k views.

EDIT 9 : For those who think The Rain Man "owned" as Teemo in the recent tournament, go see page 87-88 for a true analysis.

EDIT 10 : January 25th : Finally reached 1k upvotes!!! Yeah!




You thought out your post very well but the reason they nerfed him is because AP teemo was a little too ridiculous. Just get 40%CDR and some ap and you will do some SERIOUS damage.

His base speed is low because move quick buffs his speed passively. There are other champs that have move speed buffs who have a low base speed to begin with.

A properly built teemo is the ultimate anti-carry. Sure he's paper and so is Kog Maw but with a good team you can do a lot of damage unchallenged. I watched a fed master yi get destroyed by a teemo, I've watched a fed Tryndamere get destroyed by a teemo, I've watched basically any melee champ get owned by teemo. It happens thats what he is for. His "soft CC" is ridiculously good against the right champs.

Can't say I agree with much in this post especially when I see teemos do pretty well fairly often, Just because he has no change in 9 months doesn't mean he needs a change.

My old "main" got nerfed so hard into the ground that she's actually the worst champion in the game now. (Evelynn) if you win with Eve then the other team must have been TERRIBLE. Evelynn hasn't been changed in a long time either but they took away her stun and nerfed a lot of her stats. Meanwhile Twitch is ranged, keeps his slow, is useful in teamfights-doesn't really see any major nerfs. I struggled to deal with the early nerfs with Evelynn especially when they nerfed her base stats pretty hard and I couldn't kill golems for early level 2 anymore. Once they took the stun I was done playing her and decided not to have a 'main' because thats silly. Learn to play all the champions. I suck really bad with several champs but I try to play a different champion every game unless I just got a new one.


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ninjaipod

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
TelAvivXJoeX:
You thought out your post very well but the reason they nerfed him is because AP teemo was a little too ridiculous. Just get 40%CDR and some ap and you will do some SERIOUS damage.



That's not true at all.

Teemo was nerfed due to his 'split push power', The Rain Man held rank 1 of the ladder for sometime maining ad/on-hit teemo (solo top), after that riot nerfed Wriggle's Lantern + Move Quick and Mushrooms (esp. CD).

not that i agree with the nerfs, imo they were totally unecessary except for the WL nerf... they basically ****ed up with the only thing teemo was good for, MQ was already bad enough now it's simply ridiculous and the two patches with mushroom nerfs were like.. 'yo ap teemo shouldn't be viable, build ad/on hit or gtfo -with love Riot'

AP teemo was never really FOTM, more like a gimmick annoying build that backfired most of the time due to its dependency on mushrooms to do anything.

Quote:
The Rain Man:

Why is AP Teemo NOT viable?

AP teemo cannot farm well at all, is constantly HP starved, and is way too heavily reliant on shrooms to do damage. Basically the way I see it, every shroom you use in lane for killing creeps is one less shroom that can be used for lane/map control. As for AP Teemo's scaling with his E spell, its not nearly substantial enough to justify building AP, especially since in teamfights AP teemo will be the first target, and won't get off alot of autoattacks as basically a melee mage. Mages need to be able to sit at a distance and dish out damage while staying out of harm's way, and teemo's short autoattack range does not allow him to dish out damage effectively without putting him at risk.

Post-nerf Edit: AP Teemo is even less viable as shroom damage is nerfed, cooldown is insane, and AP Teemo has even less presence on a map.

...

Teemo needs to have defensive masteries as his range is retardedly small and requires him to be able to take alot of damage in a teamfight as for alot of the time you will have to be out of position to hit people

...

Basically the only way I see fit to play Teemo in his current state is tanky dps, played much like any melee champion.

from his solomid guide.


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Duke of dummies

Junior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
Sir Viva Lism:
Twitch and Eve are both being reworked in the Stealth patch coming Soon TM.


For me his passive is only useful in the jungle. If you end up getting in trouble, run towards their base and stealth. Now they think that either you got away or that you're stealthed, now they're in a tricky situation, the more they look the more they're away from lanes. I get the most out of it being bait in mid or late game.

I'm all for some buffs, but I'd just want something to make it feasible to go 21 points in offense without dying at a champion's cough. (although I would settle for a sneeze) I like his skill set, and I like the possibilities. But he's just so SQUISHY for a champion that relies only on speed to escape. Many builds get forced to go 21 in defense just to counter it and apply some tankiness.

Just a few tweaks Riot, that's all I'm asking for. (Tweaks, with a capital T)


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Serenity Now

Senior Member

02-01-2012

Quote:
ninjaipod:
Teemo was nerfed due to his 'split push power', The Rain Man held rank 1 of the ladder for sometime maining ad/on-hit teemo (solo top), after that riot nerfed Wriggle's Lantern + Move Quick and Mushrooms (esp. CD).


You forgot the nerf to Wit's End as well.