Really, Riot Games?

First Riot Post
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SimplyAlive

Senior Member

08-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by onihero View Post
But, it wasnt due to 'false reports'. It was due to toxic behavior coupled with having a lot of reports in the system. They didnt test those reports to see their validity (whether they were pardoned or not), as they admitted. So it was due to 'a lot of reports'.
Wrong. They did check the validity of the reports, hence the emphasis on false reports in combination with bad behaviour. That was the entire reason behind the manual sweep.

They did not use the outcome of Tribunal cases to determine the validity of the reports, but that does not mean they did not determine the validity of the reports at all. Lyte has stated they used other measures to determine the validity of reports, aside from the Tribunal cases. Details are unknown at this point.

Quote:
So call a spade a spade. These people were suspended for being toxic. Which is the Tribunal's job and if it worked, they would have gotten punished anyway. So are you saying that the Tribunal is limited in its ability to punish toxic players? Are you saying that it would not have caught these extremely toxic with 0.1% without a doubt they are super toxic people?
Riot decided to quicken the process. Remember that many of these suspended players were already in the Tribunal, already faced punishments before or even were on the brink of a permaban already.

And no, the Tribunal indeed fails when it comes to certain offences. Issuing loads of false reports is one of them. Riot made the decision to combine that aspect of 'toxicity', with the in-game data that can be viewed in the Tribunal.

This is just a sub-group of offenders that was somewhat harder to detect for the Tribunal.


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onihero

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Senior Member

08-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAlive View Post
Wrong. They did check the validity of the reports, hence the emphasis on false reports in combination with bad behaviour. That was the entire reason behind the manual sweep.

They did not use the outcome of Tribunal cases to determine the validity of the reports, but that does not mean they did not determine the validity of the reports at all. Lyte has stated they used other measures to determine the validity of reports, aside from the Tribunal cases. Details are unknown at this point.
So, like I said, they were not based on false reports.

"In other words, the specific algorithms we use don't take into account Tribunal verdicts; however, there's a correlation in the data that in the 0.2% group, their reports tended to be against people who rarely received reports and in fact were rarely even sent to the Tribunal."

Unless you define a false report as a report against someone who rarely received reports and were rarely sent to the tribunal. Personally, I think thats a fairly jinky definition of a false report when you have the data readily available to you to define an actual false report (where the person was pardoned). Again, its why I keep asking for what people define as a 'false report'.

In which case you have to accept that someone who decides to be a blatant racist or intentional feeder only once in a while is not worthy of reporting.

Quote:
Riot decided to quicken the process. Remember that many of these suspended players were already in the Tribunal, already faced punishments before or even were on the brink of a permaban already.

And no, the Tribunal indeed fails when it comes to certain offences. Issuing loads of false reports is one of them. Riot made the decision to combine that aspect of 'toxicity', with the in-game data that can be viewed in the Tribunal.

This is just a sub-group of offenders that was somewhat harder to detect for the Tribunal.
Hmmmm... Have to mull that over a bit. The Tribunal indeed fails when it comes to certain offenses. Hmm...


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SimplyAlive

Senior Member

08-31-2012

Quote:
So, like I said, they were not based on false reports.

"In other words, the specific algorithms we use don't take into account Tribunal verdicts; however, there's a correlation in the data that in the 0.2% group, their reports tended to be against people who rarely received reports and in fact were rarely even sent to the Tribunal."
I believe Lyte has stated there are algorithms at work behind the scenes, but he addressed it like this to make it understandable for the playerbase.

I'm not 100% sure about the exact context, but I am 99% sure that Lyte did not just use 'not in the Tribunal and little reports received=false reports' that he mentioned there.

EDIT: As for 'The Tribunal does not work for certain offences':
Quote:
The Tribunal was never designed to reform report abusers. It handles the false reports very well and ignores them; however, when players are punished by the Tribunal it's typically for excessive in-game behaviors.

The players today showed in-game toxicity, but also abused the report feature and often used it in an attempt to intentionally ban decent players from the game. We've been doing metrics and analyses for about 3 weeks actually, but the timing of things sort of happened out of order today.
EDIT: I found the quote oni used:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
The Player Support e-mail describes data in a way that explains context for the players. We can't explicitly explain the algorithms used to determine a false report in those e-mails.

In other words, the specific algorithms we use don't take into account Tribunal verdicts; however, there's a correlation in the data that in the 0.2% group, their reports tended to be against people who rarely received reports and in fact were rarely even sent to the Tribunal.
Lyte brought the correlation up due to the e-mail, which was indeed send to make it easier to understand. This does not mean Riot has no additional algorithms to determine false reports.


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onihero

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Senior Member

08-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAlive View Post
I believe Lyte has stated there are algorithms at work behind the scenes, but he addressed it like this to make it understandable for the playerbase.

I'm not 100% sure about the exact context, but I am 99% sure that Lyte did not just use 'not in the Tribunal and little reports received=false reports' that he mentioned there.

EDIT: As for 'The Tribunal does not work for certain offences':
Given that Zileas point to it as a heuristic, Im very inclined to believe that it in no way took into account Tribunal verdicts, just as Lyte states and his means of verifying was exactly as he pointed out. He has given us no other more exact information on the matter. So short of making stuff up, Im going with what he stated his methodology was.

So.. Meh. His definition of a false report and mine are widely different. And in my eyes, he suspended a bunch of people for reporting a lot. Not for 'false reports'.

No matter what though, they are merely spinning their wheels yet again. The toxicity in their game is due to their own policies. They are creating it and most certainly can reduce it. There is a reason their game is widely seen as having the most toxic community out there. They need to do more root cause analysis of what is causing it and address those points.


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SimplyAlive

Senior Member

08-31-2012

^Take a look at the post I just quoted. You might have missed it, but it pretty much stated there are more algorithms at work than you currently assume.

Quote:
The Player Support e-mail describes data in a way that explains context for the players. We can't explicitly explain the algorithms used to determine a false report in those e-mails.

In other words, the specific algorithms we use don't take into account Tribunal verdicts; however, there's a correlation in the data that in the 0.2% group, their reports tended to be against people who rarely received reports and in fact were rarely even sent to the Tribunal.
Just because Lyte mentions a correlation, does not mean it was the only way they calculated false reports. For someone who claims to have a scientific/statistic background, you sure lack the ability to make correct conclusions.

You know better than this, Oni.


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onihero

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Senior Member

08-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyAlive View Post
^Take a look at the post I just quoted. You might have missed it, but it pretty much stated there are more algorithms at work than you currently assume.


Just because Lyte mentions a correlation, does not mean it was the only way they calculated false reports. For someone who claims to have a scientific/statistic background, you sure lack the ability to make correct conclusions.

You know better than this, Oni.
But then you are telling me to make something up and say that that made up method is how they did it.

Again, they stated that they used a heuristic and then gave those variables which fit a heuristic quite nicely for their results. THEN they stated what they did NOT use.

So tell me what their definition of a 'false report' is. Because they stated that it wasnt based off of the Tribunal verdicts.

And weve gone round and round twice now without any new insight Oh well.

Either way:

- Give people the means to not feel detrimentally affected by a troll's actions and you will reduce the amount of toxicity in the game. You also reduce trolling altogether because you reduce the troll's ability to actually get a rise out of people, because they no longer have such a dramatic negative effect on their game experience.
- Root cause WHY people are being so toxic and address those issues by changing the policies surrounding them and you will reduce the amount of toxicity in the game.


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SimplyAlive

Senior Member

08-31-2012

I'm not saying what their definition is, because we do not know the exact measurements with which it is calculated.


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onihero

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Senior Member

08-31-2012

Whats your definition?


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SimplyAlive

Senior Member

08-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by onihero View Post
Whats your definition?
My definition does not really matter, but here goes:
A false report is a report that either does not apply to the reported player's behaviour or is a report that does not warrant a punishment.


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daendoonge

Junior Member

10-21-2012

1. The reasons or causes for ban/suspension are not provided for privacy reason there unto neglecting the rights of the accused to fully defend himself/herself.

2. The rights of the accused are fully neglected and they are not given any warning nor any sort of knowledge as to what they did really leads to banning.

3. Due to advancement in technology, Photoshop and many other image editing software can easily manipulate and forge evidences that are only used as a scam against the accused.

4. The Tribunal only listens to the accuser and the decision is made by few people who have dictatorial authorities over how they decide. This is not fair in 21st century.

5. The idea of promoting civil behaviors within the game is ruined by such actions done by the Tribunal. They themselves have no sense of CIVILITY. You are doing the same if not worse as the accused.

6. If they wanted to ban people, they should look at more solid evidence by going into the game chat and thoroughly examining the both side, the accuser and the accused. And if there is sufficient causes and beliefs to give the ban/suspension, both the accuser and the accused should be examined, not just one side. But it's not being done.

Need I say more? I could come up with thousands more, pointing out the unfairness and injustices in this "forum" which is supposed to promote "well" "civilized" behavior of "summoners" by not violating the "summoner's code", but you guys must keep in mind that these "summoners" who are reporting others(accusers) in the Tribunal have done the same to violate the codes.

You guys need to wake up and stop runing the game. If it's too much work for checking through the entire game chatlog, then DONT EVEN BOTHER BECAUSE YOU AINT HELPING AT ALL.

This goes out to all the decision making body and the people who support the current system. It's got loopholes and flaws and you know it. Change it or get rid of it.


Sincerely,

Random Summoner