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Really, Riot Games?

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Byerley

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Pendragon:
With every decision that's made - you're going to make some people happy and some people upset. There's literally nothing that we could ever do that will be universally well received.

With the efforts here we hope to create an environment that's more enjoyable for players. We've done extensive auditing and tuning on the Tribunal and have verified that it's extremely accurate. The ~99% of people who don't consistently create a negative experience for those around them have nothing to fear.

The Tribunal is meant to reform those who can be reformed, and remove those who can't. Any change, addition, subtraction, substitution, etc will be to improve its effectiveness at one of those two things. There's no reason to implement changes that don't help reform or removal.

I understand that it's frustrating for you - and thousands of other people, but reforming or removing an even greater number of people is a much bigger priority.


I appreciate the response and I might even agree with you if I got to see one of your audits, but you can't expect me to accept your causal analysis while you continue to withhold any and all of the collected data. I also understand that satiating people like me may not even be the best thing for your bottom line; unfortunate, but understandable.


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Rubeus

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Pendragon:
With every decision that's made - you're going to make some people happy and some people upset. There's literally nothing that we could ever do that will be universally well received.

With the efforts here we hope to create an environment that's more enjoyable for players. We've done extensive auditing and tuning on the Tribunal and have verified that it's extremely accurate. The ~99% of people who don't consistently create a negative experience for those around them have nothing to fear.

The Tribunal is meant to reform those who can be reformed, and remove those who can't. Any change, addition, subtraction, substitution, etc will be to improve its effectiveness at one of those two things. There's no reason to implement changes that don't help reform or removal.

I understand that it's frustrating for you - and thousands of other people, but reforming or removing an even greater number of people is a much bigger priority.


Pendragon. I am a huge fan of the tribunal but I do have a few very simple questions and a thought exercise for you.

First. I've been playing since closed beta ended. Like the day you guys started open beta. I've never received a warning for anything but I'm sure I've had a report or two in my time playing since the report system was put in place. Many people have.

If over 2 years I've received say.. 12 reports.. does this mean I get a warning? Do reports fall away over time? Or do they stay on your permanent record forever? I do not like the idea that some time down the road I have a bad day, get reported for playing badly and "Feeding" even though It is not my intention. And that puts it over the edge. And I finally have enough "reports" on my record to get in the tribunal. Which then punishes me as happens in 94% of the cases because of my 1500 games played less than 1% of them ended with some reports to me.

I think being reported 1% or less after that many games is a pretty impressive thing.

Should a person be removed from this game because 1% of the time they aren't ideal to play with? I don't personally think so.


And now for a thought problem to properly frame the OP's thoughts without being so "combative"

Say you join a community of people. There are a million people in this city. And a specific grouping of them has the right to judge and punish you based on a set of rules you agreed to when joining them. As long as you don't break the rules. You won't be punished.

These rules are black and white in their judgement. Now say you've been here for a few months.. then someone walks over to you.. an anonymous entity.. they inform you that you have broken their rules over the last 4 months via eye witness testimony and are to be punished. You are locked up in your home for a predetermined amount of time and are not allowed to take part in the community. You ask them what it was you had done so that you can hope to remedy this behavior. They say it is not for discussion or debate and leave promptly after locking you up.

You try to think on what you have done.. Just follow the rules of the community.. But it turns out that it's something you've been doing unknowingly or doing something that you think is okay by the rules yet in the opinion of others it goes too far and oversteps the rules and they report you for it.

So you have two options. You simply remove yourself from the community. You live in it, but are not a part of it. You make sure you do as little as possible to limit your chances at being reported and punished. This makes you hate the community in the long run.

The other options is to try your best and continue living your life as before.. you try to follow the rules but because you've never learned which behavior it is to work on you continue to misstep through ignorance.

Then the anonymous figure comes to you and says you've broken the rules yet again. And you are promptly thrown out. Everything you purchased in the community is locked away and forever out of your reach.

And you sit outside the gates, never once knowing what you did wrong.


I could have made this a much more extreme example but dealing in extremes will only hurt your discussions.

I would really love a Red response to my questions and I enjoy discussing ethics and working out thought problems.


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AncientSpark

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Rubeus:
And now for a thought problem to properly frame the OP's thoughts without being so "combative"

Say you join a community of people. There are a million people in this city. And a specific grouping of them has the right to judge and punish you based on a set of rules you agreed to when joining them. As long as you don't break the rules. You won't be punished.

These rules are black and white in their judgement. Now say you've been here for a few months.. then someone walks over to you.. an anonymous entity.. they inform you that you have broken their rules over the last 4 months via eye witness testimony and are to be punished. You are locked up in your home for a predetermined amount of time and are not allowed to take part in the community. You ask them what it was you had done so that you can hope to remedy this behavior. They say it is not for discussion or debate and leave promptly after locking you up.

You try to think on what you have done.. Just follow the rules of the community.. But it turns out that it's something you've been doing unknowingly or doing something that you think is okay by the rules yet in the opinion of others it goes too far and oversteps the rules and they report you for it.

So you have two options. You simply remove yourself from the community. You live in it, but are not a part of it. You make sure you do as little as possible to limit your chances at being reported and punished. This makes you hate the community in the long run.

The other options is to try your best and continue living your life as before.. you try to follow the rules but because you've never learned which behavior it is to work on you continue to misstep through ignorance.

Then the anonymous figure comes to you and says you've broken the rules yet again. And you are promptly thrown out. Everything you purchased in the community is locked away and forever out of your reach.

And you sit outside the gates, never once knowing what you did wrong.


I could have made this a much more extreme example but dealing in extremes will only hurt your discussions.

I would really love a Red response to my questions and I enjoy discussing ethics and working out thought problems.


While the example works, I think that you might be failing to take into account the other side of the argument.

Lets say this. You own a service business. It's a business that prides itself on having a nice community and, in fact, that community is extremely important to your business. One day, a man walks in, flips over all the tables, yells a bunch of obscenities, and causes a huge ruckus, all within plain sight of a bunch of customers. What do you do in this situation? Obviously, this person, if allowed to continue unabashed, will cause you to lose customers.

Now, lets say that, you banned him from your business. Are you under any obligation, moral or legal, to help him overcome whatever problems he had when he made such a huge deal? Is he even a customer? What, if anything, are you required to tell him? Wouldn't attempting to reason with him for too long cause the mess to escalate?

Lets say that a week later, he comes back, saying "Oh, I'm so sorry, I actually really liked your business, but I just hate your higher-ups who banned me without telling me what's wrong." What do you do then? What if you were an employee who never saw the incident first-hand yourself. Or maybe you received the report of the incident from another customer, 3rd-hand? What if you were another customer watching the incident and saw that the management was taking way too long to throw the disrupter out?

Your depiction, I think, shows Riot as a black box, a stranger. Riot is a company, with very limited resources. They have other customers to think about too. While the image of the stranger is nice to depict anonymity, Riot is definitely full of people too and they have different priorities to handle. Plus, there's the other parts of the community who have to deal with the consequences of what Riot does.

Quote:
Pendragon. I am a huge fan of the tribunal but I do have a few very simple questions and a thought exercise for you.

First. I've been playing since closed beta ended. Like the day you guys started open beta. I've never received a warning for anything but I'm sure I've had a report or two in my time playing since the report system was put in place. Many people have.

If over 2 years I've received say.. 12 reports.. does this mean I get a warning? Do reports fall away over time? Or do they stay on your permanent record forever? I do not like the idea that some time down the road I have a bad day, get reported for playing badly and "Feeding" even though It is not my intention. And that puts it over the edge. And I finally have enough "reports" on my record to get in the tribunal. Which then punishes me as happens in 94% of the cases because of my 1500 games played less than 1% of them ended with some reports to me.

I think being reported 1% or less after that many games is a pretty impressive thing.

Should a person be removed from this game because 1% of the time they aren't ideal to play with? I don't personally think so.


I think it was mentioned before that ratio does have something to do with whether you are landed in the Tribunal or not. Also, I think warnings/reports to fade over time. Don't quote me on that though.

Besides, suppose that 1% of the incidents caused some of the players in that game to leave or at least contributed to their leaving? Suddenly, the weight of keeping this one person may suddenly not be worth it, depending on to what degree this person contributed to the disapproval of Riot by other players.


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Ashfordjim

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Private Katarina:
Normal parents don't force their kids to waste hundreds of dollars on a whim.

Thankfully, I grew up with normal parents.

If I did have ****ty parents like that I wouldn't put up with it though.

At the very minimum said tickets would get sold. I can tell you for a fact that they would not be in my house the day after the event.


You just said you would tell your mom to go **** herself over $300 -_-. I agree with AncientSparks that $300 would be the least of a good parents' concern over teaching their kid to grow into a decent human being.

Then again, this whole analogy doesn't quite work with Riot anyway and I'm derailing the thread.


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Rubeus

Senior Member

12-21-2011

I wasn't looking to do riots side of it. I could have if I wished. But I stated I was going to make one from the OP's point of view (Not his experience, merely his argument) that wasn't so combative sounding. I also don't think your example works because you are using an "extreme" example. And I would not say riot is an unfeeling black box/stranger. My entire example was from the PoV of the hypothetical person. Extreme examples are easy to work out and judge. The problem is the gray areas. And it always will be.


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AncientSpark

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Okay, fair enough, to Rubeus.


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Rubeus

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Also on the otherside of the coin Spark. If in that 1% of games I played some of those players left or quit.. over my playing badly? What person quits playing a game because other people played badly? I do admit I do playful ribbing in game but I've never been malicious with it. Most of the time I'm self depreciating or being over the top. Like when 3 people on the enemy team walked in to 1v1 me when I was tryndamere. And I was 2 shotting them I said "Why do they come to me to die?" Was it malicious? I don't think so personally.

But anyway.. Say that 1% I drove away.. 2 people.. yet in the 99% of games I played I strengthened the player base and made all those people enjoy the game. friend and foe alike. Do my goods outweigh my far and few between bads?

Riot.. why not put in a "Good Report" function? Where you can be reported positively by players? "Was funny in game" "Carried us SO HARD" "Great Jungler" Or "Bought wards and was a great support."

Put in a reward system for good behavior outside of just "Being allowed to keep playing". If you punish the bad. You must reward the good in some fashion too. Wouldn't you say? Of course you could only get 1 good report per person. And there would be ways to abuse it.. Good reports from friends wouldn't count. The fact they friended you in the first place is reward enough. But solo queue.. things like that.. If you do well and make the game a positive experience for strangers. That is what the summoners code is all about.

If I can report a person for being a jerk. I'd like to give Kudos to those who were great. Thus encouraging that behavior. This is basic conditioning. And it works.


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Akira Tsurugi

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Good point Rubeus but I don't think that'll work just proper either, people would ask others for a "Good report" friends will do it, etc. etc. just not a proper system, if you can think of everything to make it fair and not be abused in any way, Riot might think about it.

On another note, totally disagree with OP. Tribunal is a jury, the jury thinks you're guilty. Your defense? Simple behave well next time, its not like you're going to prison for years or life, only staying in jail for committing a felony. In your response as "you don't know what you did" is probably something you yourself, need to come up with. Maybe ask friends you play with.


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Rubeus

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Akira Tsurugi:
Good point Rubeus but I don't think that'll work just proper either, people would ask others for a "Good report" friends will do it, etc. etc. just not a proper system, if you can think of everything to make it fair and not be abused in any way, Riot might think about it.

On another note, totally disagree with OP. Tribunal is a jury, the jury thinks you're guilty. Your defense? Simple behave well next time, its not like you're going to prison for years or life, only staying in jail for committing a felony. In your response as "you don't know what you did" is probably something you yourself, need to come up with. Maybe ask friends you play with.


I already said a few ways to prevent abuse for "Good Report" They have ways to prevent abuse of bad.


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NecroticBinder

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Shrinking Violet:
I appreciate the response and I might even agree with you if I got to see one of your audits, but you can't expect me to accept your causal analysis while you continue to withhold any and all of the collected data. I also understand that satiating people like me may not even be the best thing for your bottom line; unfortunate, but understandable.


See the front page, there's quite a bit of data there.