Really, Riot Games?

First Riot Post
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Uccisore

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ext3rmin8or View Post
Almost all of my friends that I play with regularly have been suspended by the Tribunal at least once.
And none of the friends I play with have even been warned. The above says more about you and the company you keep than how many players are doing what.


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Ext3rmin8or

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uccisore View Post
1.4% of the player base would be about 430,000 people. How many complaint threads HAVE you seen?
'was exaggerating.


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Ulanopo

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Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vormulac Unsleep View Post
I don't believe I suggested that at all. What I suggested is that when someone gets banned, or gets a warning, that they be told the specific reason for the ban, and shown the materials used to reach that decision - minus the names of any players who voted on their case, and any players who reported them.
With all the people that record their games, it would be very possible to still find the people that reported you. It would be just as easy to take a screen capture of the end-of-match scoreboard.

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Most of the time, I have no doubt the discussion would end right there, because there was probably an inarguable reason for their ban and the evidence will be right in front of them.
I strongly disagree. If anything, the crying would increase.

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In some situations, however, I have no doubt there will be another side to the story that is currently not found in the very limited information the Tribunal produces.
If you're talking about giving more information to jurors, I'm on board. If you're talking about giving more information to people who have been convicted, it's probably just a huge waste of money and effort.

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Agreed. And if that is how they want to be, so be it. But not a single one of us should then take them at their word that they respect or value us. That will make it very clear we are a statistic representing profit and nothing more.
Just because we're effectively cattle doesn't make the rancher want to needlessly lose headcount.


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Ext3rmin8or

Senior Member

01-07-2012

I wouldn't mind a system where people crying about bans on the forums will have their ban reviewed and if it turns out that it was justified they recieve twice the suspension.


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Vichar

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vormulac Unsleep View Post
I'm afraid you'll have to be more clear than this. I am not sure exactly what you mean. I've heard a lot about my tone, of course - but that is to be expected because I have a large vocabulary and tend to be precise in my writing. Other than that, I'm not sure what you could mean. I'm not very much the implication sort of person; I tend to be very direct and to say exactly what I mean.
I won't presume to know what the person you are responding to in the above quote meant, but for my part, I do not believe it is your vocabulary or diction, actually. Before I proceed, I want to say I'm pointing this out not because I disagree with your main point (which I actually agree with in principle but not practice) and not because I have anything against you (you seem like a decent sort), but because you are asking the question here.

We come to the forums for different reasons. Most people talk just to have their existing ideas confirmed. Some rare few of us are actually open to a real discussion. We don't have sacred ideas that are unalterable. That's the process of learning, and it's aided by an open mind. Of course, remembering what we have learned is important. Like most things, there is a balance to be struck.

Regarding your tone, it seems I'm not the only one that feels this way. Despite how polite you are (generally), and your good command of written English, you don't really give your reader the impression that you're soliciting a real discussion. You do concede points here and there, which strongly counteracts this tone of yours, but at other times you simply brush aside very valid counterpoints. It's like you read the words, but didn't take the time to consider the problem at length before typing out your opinion. I know you probably read carefully, and there's nothing wrong with your reading comprehension, but you don't really give me the impression we're having an open discussion. I also admit I may be projecting onto you, because I have typed out arguments that, after some consideration, I wanted to qualify later.

I take the time to mention this not to upset you, but rather because I'm enjoying this conversation, I like and agree with some of the points you bring up, but I'm mystified by some of your other beliefs and your apparent refusal to let the light of opposing ideas into your awareness. It's fascinating in a way, but frustrating in others because I'm never quite certain how far to backtrack in a line of thinking to find common ground to begin again with a thread.

I hope this clarification is helpful. If it wasn't, I won't bring it up again, and I apologize ahead of time for any presumption or projection on my part.


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Excited Soup

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Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
I have read and considered your position - but I just disagree.

Ultimately we've intentionally decided to be vague about suspension reasons because we expect that people need to be able to use some judgment and adapt to various social situations to be productive members of the community. If you can't shape your judgment and behavior with the information that we've provided then I have no reason to believe you're going to be able to respond well in the infinite types of social situations that can occur during your League of Legends experience.

Providing a detailed list of what's acceptable and not acceptable will change your judgment. We've found that even when providing people with a detailed list of insight that was used to make a decision - in every single instance they simply tried to argue or disagree with the evidence, or justify their behavior. If someone actually said, "Ah, so that's what I did wrong, I can see how that could be upsetting to people", then actually change - perhaps my opinion would be different.

If you keep spamming your thread in multiple forums, and bumping it, you will likely lose your access to both the game and the forums.
However, he is not asking for detail. He is asking for you to give even a general idea of what he did wrong, it's like throwing someone in jail without giving them a fair court case, or telling them what they did wrong other than saying "you broke the law" to them, which, for obvious reasons, is outlawed in the United States through the Constitution. If people argue, that's their problem, you don't have to say anything to their argument unless you think it has any sort of value.


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Vormulac Unsleep

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Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulanopo View Post
With all the people that record their games, it would be very possible to still find the people that reported you. It would be just as easy to take a screen capture of the end-of-match scoreboard.
I disagree, I don't think it would be nearly as easy as it is made out to be by others who have made this point. And even if it was, this same system is in place in other games, like WoW for example - and on WoW, it would be even easier to find who reported you, as people typically play within the same static group of players which are much smaller than the pool we are matched with - and yet, I have never seen a case of Blizzard Entertainment being held liable for the actions of one player against another. It is a non-issue.



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I strongly disagree. If anything, the crying would increase
.

Possibly, but that doesn't mean Riot has to listen to it. I already said, once the evidence has been handed out, proof shown, reasons given, in most cases any further attempts on the part of the then-obviously guilty could be handled by copypasta or ignored.


Quote:
If you're talking about giving more information to jurors, I'm on board. If you're talking about giving more information to people who have been convicted, it's probably just a huge waste of money and effort.
I'm talking about the latter, but the former would also be a huge help.


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Vormulac Unsleep

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Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
I won't presume to know what the person you are responding to in the above quote meant, but for my part, I do not believe it is your vocabulary or diction, actually. Before I proceed, I want to say I'm pointing this out not because I disagree with your main point (which I actually agree with in principle but not practice) and not because I have anything against you (you seem like a decent sort), but because you are asking the question here.

We come to the forums for different reasons. Most people talk just to have their existing ideas confirmed. Some rare few of us are actually open to a real discussion. We don't have sacred ideas that are unalterable. That's the process of learning, and it's aided by an open mind. Of course, remembering what we have learned is important. Like most things, there is a balance to be struck.

Regarding your tone, it seems I'm not the only one that feels this way. Despite how polite you are (generally), and your good command of written English, you don't really give your reader the impression that you're soliciting a real discussion. You do concede points here and there, which strongly counteracts this tone of yours, but at other times you simply brush aside very valid counterpoints. It's like you read the words, but didn't take the time to consider the problem at length before typing out your opinion. I know you probably read carefully, and there's nothing wrong with your reading comprehension, but you don't really give me the impression we're having an open discussion. I also admit I may be projecting onto you, because I have typed out arguments that, after some consideration, I wanted to qualify later.

I take the time to mention this not to upset you, but rather because I'm enjoying this conversation, I like and agree with some of the points you bring up, but I'm mystified by some of your other beliefs and your apparent refusal to let the light of opposing ideas into your awareness. It's fascinating in a way, but frustrating in others because I'm never quite certain how far to backtrack in a line of thinking to find common ground to begin again with a thread.

I hope this clarification is helpful. If it wasn't, I won't bring it up again, and I apologize ahead of time for any presumption or projection on my part.
Thanks for your post, I see where you may get this impression, it has been mentioned before and I clarified in a previous post. The simple fact of the matter is that I have either seen most of the arguments against my position at other times, or I have anticipated them and taken them into account when writing this post. In short, I already know how I will respond, because I have given them deep consideration already. I concede the parts where I feel there is merit to be had, and yes, outright dismiss other arguments while trying my best to give my reasoning for finding them invalid.

No offense taken. Hope that clears it up.


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Excited Soup

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Senior Member

01-07-2012

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Originally Posted by Soft Cow View Post
What is he going to do now that he can't complain about not getting a response?
Stay by his point, I hope. The response was pretty much a **** response, from what I gather, it says "if you can't change by what we've given you, then it's your fault", which is complete **** considering what they give you is absolutely nothing.


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Uccisore

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vormulac Unsleep View Post
Good morning, forums. Let me start off by informing KIASKILL that his support is neither wanted, nor needed, and that all he has done by his huge number of unlettered, rambling, childish posts is cover a miniscule number of diamonds in a massive amount of excrement
That's not ALL he's done. He's also given us an object lesson in the typical sort of person Riot would open themselves up to 'discussing' things with if they adopt your ideas.

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Here's the thing: It doesn't matter,
Of course it does. Riot has a financial interest in not implementing new features or methods or anything else that will take time effort and money unless it actually effects the game somehow. By Riot' stats, we're talking about something that affects less than one percent of the player base. By your repeated admission, implementing your ideas would actually change something for this tiny sliver of the player base almost never. Again, A RIOTER was JUST HERE explaining to you why changes that don't affect hardly anybody in any meaningful way aren't going to be implemented. Last time a Rioter contradicted you, you told me straight up that you don't give a **** what they think about anything, and that was the head of the very department that makes decisions on the kind of thing we're discussing.

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I've covered this as well. I agree with this point entirely. However, my main point is that Riot needs to establish with an actioned player what point they have violated the Code, in order for that person to make the change Riot hopes will come from a warning or temporary ban.
No. That's a pure speculation on your part. According to Riot's statistics, half the people who show up in the Tribunal never show up their again under the system as-is. You have nothing but a guess to back up the idea that telling people why they were punished would have a worthwhile impact on people's behavior.

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My second point is that the Tribunal information is woefully inaccurate, and cannot possibly reasonably be used in many cases as a meaningful establishment of guilt.
Which is when you vote to pardon.

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I believe that at least some of those cases see punishment anyway.
Who cares what you believe? This is kinds of the summary of the whole previous paragraph- you speculate that some important number of poeple are being punished when they don't deserve it, and you further speculate that these people would be able to change things with more information, and go on to speculate that people would be more likely to change their ways with some of this data you want them to have. None of this is in evidence, none of this is plausible to people in a position to actually consider the changes you've suggested.


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There are definitely companies who deal with a drastically larger playerbase. The number of League accounts =/= the number of actual players.
First of all, that's not the only figure Riot has given us. They've also given us the "1 million concurrent users" figure, which ALSO puts them at or near the very top of online game communities. Secondly, every game advertises it's size by giving number of accounts- comparing number of accounts in this game, to number of accounts in any other given game, puts this game as the biggest thing going.

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Free to play game + bonus for referring yourself + relative ease of creating these new accounts using yopmail or something similar = a metric ****ton of smurf accounts.
Hahah, yes. Yes. Which leaves you free to speculate, once more, and make things up in your mind about other games that are far far larger than League of Legends even though you have absolutely no data to suggest that this might be the case.

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Valve Corporation, for instance, deals with a much, much, much larger number of game players.
And what number would that be? Give me some reason to believe you aren't just talking out your ass or guessing.

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And I've been banned by them before. And they showed me the information used to reach that decision and opened a dialogue with me about it.
And at the end of the day you came to League of Legends and acted out and got punished here too. So fat ****ing lot of good it did reforming you, huh?

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Yes I do, but beyond that, I am also considering the nature of many of these people. I know that for most people, just going away is not going to be the choice they make. Additionally, I've seen numerous trolls ruin games and explicitly state that they didn't give a **** about being banned, that being banned only made them more determined to come back and give Riot some more grief.
Which has nothing at all to do with anything other than, you're a griefer who has been banned by multiple games, you hang out with apparently dozens of people with a similar mentality to multiplayer games, and now here you are suggesting Riot implement a system that makes it easier for griefers to argue with their punishments. The only difference between you and the person you criticized in the beginning of this post is that you realize that acting like a tool in this particular circumstances doesn't suit your ends.

So now that we've established that this game would most likely be better off if you and apparently most of your friends were no longer allowed to play it, why should anyone give a **** what you think about the punishment system? A system that results in your clique not being here is working as intended based on all the information you've given me.

For all I know, implementing an evidence system is something you're only suggesting because you have some way in mind to exploit it.

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I think the huge majority of people who have come to the forums are probably guilty in a way even I would agree with. HOWEVER, I also think that it doesn't matter, and that guilt or innocence has nothing to do with whether or not Riot Games should provide the information requested.
You haven't even established what a griefer like you means by 'should'. Anything you've had to say about ethics, morality, and human interaction as been to say that it's completely up in the air and subjective, and again, you're STILL contradicting yourself and asserting Riot has duties. You ignored this point the last time I made it, so I'll make it again. Indefinitely, if need be:

If ethics are so subjective that people can't be relied upon to know how to behave, then ethics are so subjective that Riot has no actual obligation to do anything you suggest. Period.