Really, Riot Games?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ZennShade

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
You're not being fair. It's pretty clear what the suspensions are for. It's against the summoner's code to disrupt the game for other people. They report you, and the Tribunal compares the chat log with the rules listed in the Summoner's code. It's not coming out of left field. It's almost always some kind of intentional griefing in game, AFK, or just being plain rude to other people in chat.

Are there exceptions, people that got banned by the system that shouldn't have? I'll be there are. And yet, the attitudes of the people claiming they were suspended unfairly is uniformly poor. They make a very strong case against themselves. I think this is why the police grant you the right to remain silent...
I admit absolutely that my attitude is poor, and I will also simply state that I would not in any other situation be quite so forwardly aggressive. However, when you get blamed for something you do not believe you did wrong, it is bound to upset you and some people have problems managing how upset they allow things to get. It is not always something that people have any control over, sometimes it is not any fault of theirs.

As much as it is wrong to make fun of someone who is retarded, it is equally as bad to taunt someone who was born with a predisposition to getting upset and those two guys I mentioned? They were both reported by every member of my team. Why, though, was I even banned when it should have quite clearly shown in the chat logs that they were taunting me, INTENDING to upset me with their just downright vulgar conversation. And I don't want to hear "You can ignore them." Because they could have ignored me just as easily. Sure, perhaps I did deserve the ban, even though I wasn't nearly as disruptive to the game as those two guys were. But then, I was banned a long time before they would have been also. Why is that?

The law does not punish self defense. Neither should Riot games.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vichar

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZennShade View Post
If you get arrested, they tell you the reason why you were arrested. It's the same principle. When you are punished, you should always be told the reason why. Not simply "You did it, figure it out." I do a lot of things in a single day, and some of them might not be that great but I don't consider any of them worthy of me being outcasted from my peers.

I'm more likely to learn from my mistake if my mom said "You broke curfew three times last week." than if I was just grounded out of random. The way I see it, the only people who can ACTUALLY benefit from not being told what they did wrong are those people who intentionally did something they knew they weren't supposed to do.
I thought about suggesting that Riot give the specific reason for the punishment in the email to you. So if you got suspended for "intentional feeding", it would say "intentional feeding" in your email.

The thing is, it's never just one kind of reporting. Think about the guy with 200 reports. He'd have just about every report reason in his email, and he'd still complain that the email wasn't specific enough.

One lone report is not enough to even generate a warning. I'm sure I'm reported by people sometimes, but I've never gotten a warning.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Private Katarina

Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashfordjim View Post
WTH is wrong with you? No, normal people don't say something like that to their parents.
Normal parents don't force their kids to waste hundreds of dollars on a whim.

Thankfully, I grew up with normal parents.

If I did have ****ty parents like that I wouldn't put up with it though.

At the very minimum said tickets would get sold. I can tell you for a fact that they would not be in my house the day after the event.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AncientSpark

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZennShade View Post
If you get arrested, they tell you the reason why you were arrested. It's the same principle. When you are punished, you should always be told the reason why. Not simply "You did it, figure it out." I do a lot of things in a single day, and some of them might not be that great but I don't consider any of them worthy of me being outcasted from my peers.

I'm more likely to learn from my mistake if my mom said "You broke curfew three times last week." than if I was just grounded out of random. The way I see it, the only people who can ACTUALLY benefit from not being told what they did wrong are those people who intentionally did something they knew they weren't supposed to do.
The reason why the tell you why you got arrested is an issue of practicality, not an issue of wanting a nice fanbase. The law is pretty morally grey and they wouldn't be able to do anything if they didn't tell you what you got banned for, in a system where morality is the primary currency, except in cases of corruption. Again, you're creating a lot of inappropriate metaphors; the government has responsibilities to an international community to be fair and just with a system that is not particularly easy to divine by pedestrian standards, and a responsibility to be impartial and to intervene in situations that might not even have anything to do with them. Heck, 90% of the cases that go through a court happen to have no relevance to them, as an organization; do you think they can run without everyone being on the same page? That's why they basically have to tell you what you did wrong, if they want to proceed through normal court systems in general.

By comparison, this is Riot with responsibilities to only their consumers with a code that is not hard to grok. Do you think that, in these situations, Riot has the manpower to search through millions of chatlogs in order to service a demographic that has ALREADY SLIGHTED them and their community, for the abstract concept of "justice"? This is unrealistic and naive. The government has, in its responsibilities, to treat its citizens with fairness and respect, but there is no such law in basic interactions, especially when one party has already treated the other party crappily and the distance is as much as between a company and one of its customers.

A more appropriate metaphor is a restaurant owner who throws you out for causing a ruckus. You're on his property and you already lost your rights as a customer when you violated very basic principles through which he cannot run a basic service. Now, in his interest, he must throw you out so that he can service other customers. He is NOT required to tell you anything; he can console you out by being nice, trying to calm you down, first, etc., but there is nothing from him raising his hands and yelling "GET OUT!"

You say that "Oh, but these are paying customers", but, I really doubt that more than half of these people can comfortably pay money after being temporarily banned anyway. Most of them probably left LoL anyway. Besides, as I mentioned above, if you violate Terms of Service, are you already a customer? You might have had a hand in having maybe 300 people leave the community, through which the profit Riot has made off of you is negative. Can you really call yourself a customer then?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Byerley

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methelod View Post
By "size-able" you mean a small enough portion that no one cares about, especially considering that every other game company can do this. Yes, you and the vocal majority of anti-tribunal trolls all are disgusted by the fact that you get caught.
This thread got 170+ upvotes in general in a short amount of time. I'd say it's a reasonable enough sized portion.

I'm not poor, but I'm frugal enough that I can't justify spending money on something that can instantly and legally be seized by a company that won't even discuss the matter (note: the last part is what differentiates Riot from other gaming companies with similar ToS's). I've never been banned, I've never been warned, and I'll never spend money on this game unless something changes. It's a shame because I've really been wanting that armored Shyvana skin =/


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ZennShade

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
I thought about suggesting that Riot give the specific reason for the punishment in the email to you. So if you got suspended for "intentional feeding", it would say "intentional feeding" in your email.

The thing is, it's never just one kind of reporting. Think about the guy with 200 reports. He'd have just about every report reason in his email, and he'd still complain that the email wasn't specific enough.

One lone report is not enough to even generate a warning. I'm sure I'm reported by people sometimes, but I've never gotten a warning.
And see, this -would- be true except that if you read a lot of the threads. Most of them by people who actually believe in the good uses of Tribunal, there are more and more one game one report cases every single day and it's really kind of horrible that these cases are what Riot considers to be the top 3% worst offenders and from what I've read, many of these are either false reports or pardons because there simply is not enough information to condemn these people.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vichar

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZennShade View Post
As much as it is wrong to make fun of someone who is retarded, it is equally as bad to taunt someone who was born with a predisposition to getting upset and those two guys I mentioned? They were both reported by every member of my team. Why, though, was I even banned when it should have quite clearly shown in the chat logs that they were taunting me, INTENDING to upset me with their just downright vulgar conversation. And I don't want to hear "You can ignore them." Because they could have ignored me just as easily. Sure, perhaps I did deserve the ban, even though I wasn't nearly as disruptive to the game as those two guys were. But then, I was banned a long time before they would have been also. Why is that?

The law does not punish self defense. Neither should Riot games.
How do you know they weren't banned / suspended in the past, or before you? As far as I know, the punishments are meted out privately. Also, you have to do a lot to be perma-banned, so if you saw them in subsequent games, maybe they had already served out their suspensions.

I see a lot of people posting about fairness, but there is no reason to believe that the people that provoked you are not themselves going in front of the Tribunal. A moment's reflection on the way the system works would reveal this. Riot has said that the people that reported a lot get to the Tribunal first. If you got in front of the Tribunal, it's because you didn't just flip out once but many times. If this is true of the people that were taunting you, what reason do you have to believe they didn't also go in front of the Tribunal? Just because you didn't see it happen, doesn't mean it didn't happen.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AncientSpark

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Private Katarina View Post
Normal parents don't force their kids to waste hundreds of dollars on a whim.

Thankfully, I grew up with normal parents.

If I did have ****ty parents like that I wouldn't put up with it though.

At the very minimum said tickets would get sold. I can tell you for a fact that they would not be in my house the day after the event.
And normal parents would absolutely ground their children and not care about their spending expenses in order to teach them a lesson about humility and respect.

See, I can make broad generalizations based on my narrow-sighted perspective too! Because this actually happened. And I actually happen to like my parents a lot. And before you say anything about "you're deluded" or **** like that, think carefully about what kind of reflection you're shining on your parents when you make stereotypes like this. Because it's ****. It really is.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ZennShade

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by AncientSpark View Post
The reason why the tell you why you got arrested is an issue of practicality, not an issue of wanting a nice fanbase. The law is pretty morally grey and they wouldn't be able to do anything if they didn't tell you what you got banned for, in a system where morality is the primary currency, except in cases of corruption. Again, you're creating a lot of inappropriate metaphors; the government has responsibilities to an international community to be fair and just with a system that is not particularly easy to divine by pedestrian standards. By comparison, this is Riot with responsibilities to only their consumers with a code that is not hard to grok. Do you think that, in these situations, Riot has the manpower to search through millions of chatlogs in order to service a demographic that has ALREADY SLIGHTED them and their community, for the abstract concept of "justice"? This is unrealistic and naive. The government has, in its responsibilities, to treat its citizens with fairness and respect, but there is no such law in basic interactions, especially when one party has already treated the other party crappily and the distance is as much as between a company and one of its customers.

A more appropriate metaphor is a restaurant owner who throws you out for causing a ruckus. You're on his property and you already lost your rights as a customer when you violated very basic principles through which he cannot run a basic service. Now, in his interest, he must throw you out so that he can service other customers. He is NOT required to tell you anything; he can console you out by being nice, trying to calm you down, first, etc., but there is nothing from him raising his hands and yelling "GET OUT!"

You say that "Oh, but these are paying customers", but, I really doubt that more than half of these people can comfortably pay money after being temporarily banned anyway. Most of them probably left LoL anyway. Besides, as I mentioned above, if you violate Terms of Service, are you already a customer? You might have had a hand in having maybe 300 people leave the community, through which the profit Riot has made off of you is negative. Can you really call yourself a customer then?
Honestly, half of the money I've spent was probably after my bans, of which I actually have had several because I can fully admit I do sometimes get out of hand and deserve bans. But, there are also times that I don't believe I deserve them. However, I keep buying RP because I do enjoy this game. It is not a bad game. I just don't agree with the way things are handled.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vichar

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
This thread got 170+ upvotes in general in a short amount of time. I'd say it's a reasonable enough sized portion.

I'm not poor, but I'm frugal enough that I can't justify spending money on something that can instantly and legally be seized by a company that won't even discuss the matter (note: the last part is what differentiates Riot from other gaming companies with similar ToS's). I've never been banned, I've never been warned, and I'll never spend money on this game unless something changes. It's a shame because I've really been wanting that armored Shyvana skin =/
I agree with you in principle, but not in practice. I remember when General Discussion was filled with threads bashing Riot because nothing was being done about in-game griefing. People thought the report button was a joke, and that Riot never banned anyone.

Fast forward to today, and we're getting complaints from the other direction. It's a little ironic. I agree in theory people should be told what they are doing wrong. In practice, people are demonstrating they can't handle the truth.