WaterD's Tier list 12/21/11

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PrimalHatred

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Kayle in t4 seems very odd to me. Her DPS gets absurd very quickly and the ult is amazing.


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Tale Feather

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Macaroni View Post
What is this, your 5th attempt at a tier list because the rest got closed? While tier lists can be helpful to gauge the strength of a champ in Dominion, a tier list is silly to make for Dominion because certain comps surprisingly beat the "stronger" champs. I think this is another thread you've created to try to make yourself self-important and not actually try to make an effort to help others. Your responses to others who disagree with you are rude and it's getting a little redundant that you keep trying this.
This observation, paired with WaterD's general conduct on the forums can only lead me to mirror Macaroni's opinion.

The tier listing seems fairly bias as well, listing only personal experiences and not really citing anything behind any champ as to why. ("I don't see many." Doesn't prevent some of these champs from being sleeper hits in high tier.) Worse it fails to go in depth at all at individual champions who's builds and roles are variable as a virtue, or serve as hard counters to Tier 1 or S tier picks regardless of their previous OP positions.

There's just no substance here, and Water D is relying on others to provide it for him. If we're really going to approach characters in Dominion Seriously, the first thing we need to do is to drop the tier concept all together and approach each champion on an individual level, analyze roles, strengths, weaknesses, as well as champion synergies cooperatively, competitively, and head to head. This also includes item synergy with builds as well both in the current, and the perceived future metas.

And that sort of work is going to take a lot more than simple thread conversation to cover it. And I think it's rather cocky to lead an attempt to create conversation by trying to peddle a personal opinion off as something even remotely professional.


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FoX2525

Senior Member

12-21-2011

I want Nid to be viable.... I'll lose every game trying.


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Tale Feather

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimalHatred View Post
Kayle in t4 seems very odd to me. Her DPS gets absurd very quickly and the ult is amazing.
Kayle can very easily be misplayed. She's got high variability ranging from tanky to glass cannon, from AP to AD with her best builds for situations often somewhere in-between in dominion, rather than pooling all your strengths.

It's because of this variability you'll often find a lot of people just not sure what to build her, or thinking of only building her one way. It's this problem, coupeled with how much slower the pace of Summoner's Rift is, that makes her seem like such a poor champion in many people's eyes. But played right, she can carry a team, even in Dominion against some of the highest tier champions.

It's not my policy to tier champions because even a 'low-tier' champion built well in the hands of a good player can pubstomp even some of the best champions playing the 'highest tier' champions against equally skilled champs, so long as the champion/item dynamic is known.

The problem is, a majority of the most skilled players in this game are highly concerned with Elo, and won't take a risk to explore the depth of something that is unpopular for any number of reasons.


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PrimalHatred

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tale Feather View Post
It's not my policy to tier champions because even a 'low-tier' champion built well in the hands of a good player can pubstomp even some of the best champions playing the 'highest tier' champions against equally skilled champs, so long as the champion/item dynamic is known.
Agreed and this seems even more prominent on dominion. I mostly brought her up because I tried her yesterday out of curiosity and ended up spending the entire day pissing on Vayne and Rammus players.

Glass cannon + exh & cleanse is insane.


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Tale Feather

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoX2525 View Post
I want Nid to be viable.... I'll lose every game trying.
How are you playing her?

I'd imagine she'd be at her best playing the jungle center as much as possible as a roamer, packing cleanse rather than ghost due to speed shrines and already getting mobility bonuses in the brush.

She should theoretically be awesome for flexing back and forth between needed areas, providing ganks and support. But all the ones I see seem to pretty much keep her to laning.


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dredzach

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Kayle is a great carry in dominion. She is also a possible counterpick to Yorick bottom. Kayle is hard to play though. You have to choose your items and style carefully.


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Sfawas

Junior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Macaroni View Post
What is this, your 5th attempt at a tier list because the rest got closed? While tier lists can be helpful to gauge the strength of a champ in Dominion, a tier list is silly to make for Dominion because certain comps surprisingly beat the "stronger" champs. I think this is another thread you've created to try to make yourself self-important and not actually try to make an effort to help others. Your responses to others who disagree with you are rude and it's getting a little redundant that you keep trying this.
Cut the man some slack. He said in the OP that the purpose of the list was to generate discussion. As much as I think tier lists can be ridiculous, I don't see how fostering a discussion of what champions can excel in Dominion vs. which do not is out of place on the forum.

Since I'm bored at work, I'll nitpick though:

-I'm surprised to see Warwick and Fiddlesticks ranked so high. I haven't seen either on-hit or max-CDR tanky Warwicks do well, despite being tough to kill. Fiddle's fear is great but given his short range and long-ish ult cooldown it seems to me like he's either very squishy or has poor damage. I'm curious as to why these two placed so highly on your list - just for sustain/delay/point defense?

-I adore Singed, but I think like he's only "okay" at best in Dominion. Since he can only damage targets in melee range, he's got a tough time defending nodes, and his strengths in initiation/counterinitiation and the threat of fling aren't quite as important in Dominion. I feel like he's the victim of a problem that plagues most pure tanks in Dominion - that even tanks aren't tanky in the face of a team of five "farmed" Dominion champions, compared to 2-3 at most in SR.

-Maybe it's just the FOTM talking, but I think Riven performs above average in Dominion. She's strong at all points in the game: her scaling is great and her level 3 is bonkers. Similarly, she's very strong 1v1, but has strong AOE for larger fights. I'd probably place her somewhere around Lee Sin, since they have comparable skill sets.

-I'd swap Kassadin and Yorick's places. If for whatever reason I was in a game in which neither of these two champions was banned, I'd pick Kassadin and give up Yorick every time. While the ridiculousness of Yorick can be somewhat blunted by picking a bottom lane that will turn things into a farmfest (e.g. Soraka), Kassadin can't really be stopped from ruining everyone's day up top.

Other quick thoughts:

I was going to write something about Cassiopeia being just a little overrated due to her lack of defense/squishiness, but really, I probably just suck with Cassiopeia. Also, her damage while you're poisoned is somewhere around getting Brand comboed every second for infinity seconds, as long as she lands her Qs.

On-hit Kayle is okay. The ultimate is really well suited for Dominion since it can assist in both diving turrets and stopping dives on yours.

I don't like Evelynn. Stealth isn't enough compensation for her poor utility, survivability, and damage. I don't see what advantage she brings over any other highly mobile champion that hangs around/ganks from the jungle.

Oh, and please don't advertise that Urgot is good bottom. I just laned against him bottom for the first time today and it was quite the hassle. I thought I'd be able to dodge grenades and outpush him, but I hadn't thought of Urgot's non-stop untargetted Q spam at my minions. Was much stronger than I expected.


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Tale Feather

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by dredzach View Post
Kayle is a great carry in dominion. She is also a possible counterpick to Yorick bottom. Kayle is hard to play though. You have to choose your items and style carefully.
Ripping off a guide base, but what I do mainly is grab Zerk Boots and either work my way to a Stinger, or grab Vampiric Scepter first, then Stinger for sustain. After either of those two points, I start counter-building, placing emphasis Attack Speed as a priority.

Probably my biggest problem so far is countering heavy AP bursts. Wits end helps a little if I'm already built on stacks, but the problem is having those stacks when jumped. Odyn's veil seems a bit pricey for what it offers.

Quote:
-I'm surprised to see Warwick and Fiddlesticks ranked so high. I haven't seen either on-hit or max-CDR tanky Warwicks do well, despite being tough to kill. Fiddle's fear is great but given his short range and long-ish ult cooldown it seems to me like he's either very squishy or has poor damage. I'm curious as to why these two placed so highly on your list - just for sustain/delay/point defense?
It's the fear and silence more than anything. Being able to silence an entire enemy group while you effectively lock down one enemy is enough for a carry or even a tanky DPS to destroy someone on their turret. The Ult makes him incredibly powerful in gathered teamfights, which are infrequent enough to counter the cooldown, and drain gives him powerful damage and sustain.

He's countered by a roamer with cleanse or focused burst, but you have to be aware of his position, which makes champs like Teemo highly useful against him, while people like Yorick can be heavily countered by him.

He's very decent Kayle ally, actually, as their kits align nicely.


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WaterD103

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Senior Member

12-21-2011

To non haters, I actually update this tier list all the time in a site I frequent a lot.
http://www.fantasystrike.com/forums/index.php?threads/league-of-legends-true-successor-thread.5260/page-6#post-157107

In case you want to follow my tier list updates or even discuss it there with people there. (It's a forum about game design in general)